The Real Problem with Parsers

[Archaell]

You may not want to accept it, but if both DPS are pulling 300 DPS and you're still clearing the content, then they're doing acceptable DPS for the content. Objectively. You may subjectively want them to do more, but the game objectively decides what's acceptable.

What happens when you get tank or healer in the group who do the same amount of work as the 300 DPS players? I am quite certain that somebody has to explain why they can't keep up the enmity or tank alive.

The problem comes in when people have different ideas of what's acceptable. Expert roulette only requires an ilvl of 145. That means it's expected to be cleared with i145 gear-sized DPS.

Are you suggesting that everyone in the game will know an OBJECTIVE "acceptable" DPS level based on the gear requirements and accept to put out a minimum of that amount, and conversely accept that anyone putting out at least that minimal amount is being acceptable for the dungeon? But where is this magic objective number going to come from?

Suddenly SE has to come up with a new set of rules and new calculations in order to quantify what levels of DPS are acceptable that they can put on the DF listing so you know not to go if you don't qualify, or else you can be kicked "in fairness".

This magic number is going to come from... players playing the game. If you see DPS player doing 1000 dps and similarly geared another player who is doing 300 DPS, it isn't too hard to tell who is and who isn't putting in enough effort.

That doesn't answer my question. My question was, would it be fine if people kicked tanks for pulling a single group at a time because that was what they were comfortable with? For that matter, are you fine with people kicking tanks because they stay in tank stance instead of switching to DPS stance to make the run faster, simply because they're not comfortable removing their tankiness or not comfortable with their threat generation?

Are you fine with people kicking healers for solely healing instead of stance dancing because they're not comfortable with it and don't want to risk a wipe because they didn't do it right?

Yes, I am okay with it. If the group can't stand small pulls, tank stanced tank or healer who doesn't want to dps then they are free to kick them. Clearly these guys deserve to wait for a new tank/healer, while the tank/healer gets a new reasonable group in matter of seconds.

[StouterTaru]

No it wasn't. It was that the person needs to prove that people won't.

So you're saying he has to prove the future if one thing happens. He's asking for nice things, you're saying we shouldn't have it because people will break it. I think it's you that needs to magically prove that bad things will happen.

Uses of a parser:
See how well someone is fighting. May or may not help if they care to pay attention to you or the parser.

• See if you're hitting accuracy caps, more important for some jobs than others.
• See who the weak link(s) is/are when you can't clear content, and figure out if they need to fix it or be replaced.
• See how often you are hitting/missing/HQing on crafting/gathering, because the game is more than just dps numbers.
• See how much damage everyone takes.
• Use the information to decide where best to use buffs.

Uses for examining gear:
Seeing if someone's wearing crafting gear or the wrong stat.
Seeing what gear someone's actually wearing if they have it glamoured.
Seeing what someone's glamour is because you liked it and want to get the item too.

Or did you forget there's more to the game than DPS numbers?

• Crafting gear doesn't spritbond in HW dungeons, so I don't see it as a major issue.
• Wrong stats shows not knowing the job, low parser damage shows not playing the job well. The end result is the same.
• I don't want people to know my glamour or look like me, this shouldn't exist.
• People can ignore examining their teammates the same they can ignore parsers.
• People can discriminate and gear shame

[Aiselia]

What happens when you get tank or healer in the group who do the same amount of work as the 300 DPS players? I am quite certain that somebody has to explain why they can't keep up the enmity or tank alive.

Then the entire group's going nowhere and a parser won't do anything to save them.

This magic number is going to come from... players playing the game.

But then that makes the number subjective. If someone did all right with 500 DPS and wasn't kicked before, then suddenly some group comes along that demands 1,000, what's the person supposed to take away from that?

I'll tell you the most likely scenario: "Man, those guys were jerks. I've never had problems with my DPS before. They're just elitists."

The less likely scenario is that they'll give a crap to get better.

Yes, I am okay with it.

Then it's funny how you advocate putting the needs of others before yourself and then say it's okay if people put their own wants ahead of the tank or healer.

You're also an example of the worst kind of person that should be advocating for a parser, especially when the common argument against parsers is that it'll cause more kicks that are unnecessary.

[Archaell]

Then the entire group's going nowhere and a parser won't do anything to save them.

Exactly. The difference is that it is easy to see when the tank or healer aren't doing enough. To make things fair we need parser to see when DPS players aren't doing enough.

But then that makes the number subjective. If someone did all right with 500 DPS and wasn't kicked before, then suddenly some group comes along that demands 1,000, what's the person supposed to take away from that?

I'll tell you the most likely scenario: "Man, those guys were jerks. I've never had problems with my DPS before. They're just elitists."

The less likely scenario is that they'll give a crap to get better.

Yes, it is subjective. It depends on every single group how much are they going to require. If majority of players tells you that your dps is low... well sooner or later you might think about it and maybe it will motivate you to switch your role or improve.

Then it's funny how you advocate putting the needs of others before yourself and then say it's okay if people put their own wants ahead of the tank or healer.

No. I say that needs of several players in the group are more important than needs of one player. Also you can try it. Enter DF as a dps role, tell the group that tank isn't pulling enough mobs and try to vote kick them. I am looking froward to read what happens next.

You're also an example of the worst kind of person that should be advocating for a parser, especially when the common argument against parsers is that it'll cause more kicks that are unnecessary.

Well yeah, I might not be best suited to advocate parsers as I am being too much realistic. In regard to unnecessary kicks... here comes the catch. If somebody is not contributing enough then I do not consider it unnecessary.

[rappa]

Probably, the first days after parser implementation would bring a unnecessary kicks. The community would have to acommodate and discover which numbers are fine and which are low or unacceptable.

There are two facts would occur:

- Players don't like to be kicked and search info to improve their rotations and playstyle.
- They don't care about stuff and join with friends who tolerate theirs low performance.

[Aiselia]

One half of your argument

I've made more than two points, so you're already wrong. Let me guess what you chose to ignore.

Increase in harassment reports if people do start calling others out on their DPS or kicking because of it, and console limitations.

increase the rate at which people are harassed in content by their mere presence.

Which is proven by this thread.

You hold to this idea that the group should be beholden to the comfort of the individual.

If you queue to get random people, you should accept the random people you get, as long as you can clear the content.

SE has proclaimed that it is entirely acceptable to kick people out of your group because of differences in playstyle. This means that if a tank "didn't want to pull everything because they weren't comfortable doing it", and the rest of the group wants them to, and they refuse, then they are 100% legitimately able to be removed from the group because the way they way to play conflicts with the way the group wants to play.

Despite that only ever being an attempt to defend the worst parts of the community, it's also not a catch-all.

Lots of people quote that but few seem to know that in the same thread, they also refused to quantify what that actually means, and went ahead and specifically said to report any suspected violation any time you think it's abused and let the GMs decide. Know what that means? "Difference in playstyle" isn't a catch-all that makes you immune to being punished. Otherwise they wouldn't bother telling you to waste their time, because you could literally chalk anything up to difference in playstyle. "I didn't want to share loot" turns into "Having two casters is sub-optimal, so we're kicking you". There would be literally no reason to even pretend there are rules.

In fact, here's a direct quote from the thread where that was brought up:

"If the concern is that this will be used as an excuse to abuse the feature, if our investigation determines that they did perform their duties in an appropriate manner and were kicked due to unrealistic expectations, then it could be found to be an abuse of the vote dismiss feature."

Y'know what that means? If someone's trying but not matching your DPS expectations, but they're still doing acceptable DPS for that dungeon? Reportable! Kicking them could be abuse!

Know what else that means? If a tank's only pulling one group at a time because that's what they're comfortable with and they're performing their role as needed? Reportable! Kicking them could be abuse!

then we absolutely have the prerogative to vote kick that tank from our group in hopes of finding a tank more suitable to our playstyle.

And the tank absolutely has the prerogative to report you for votekick abuse because they were performing their duties in an appropriate manner and you kicked them for unrealistic expectations.

For a good many people, having the tools and knowledge that comes from parsers would allow them to find the gaps in their play style and improve.

Which is exactly why I've said repeatedly that parsers can be useful.

They would have the context of knowing how their gameplay compares to others, whether how they perform is good or bad, acceptable or otherwise.

If they get the right context. Someone pulling 600 DPS in groups with someone pulling 300 DPS is going to think they're doing great. Then they get someone who pulls 1200 and lolkicks them because they didn't know they could do better.

Yes, it is true that the introduction of public parsers would increase the amount of harassment and kicking that occurs based on subjectively low DPS.

So many people say this while also trying to argue that having a parser wouldn't do that.

However, on the flip side of that coin is all the positive benefit you can reap by suddenly enlightening a community of people that have been unwittingly dwelling in the dark, unable to know or conceptualize the metrics behind their performance. They will finally have the opportunity to see how well [or not] they are doing, and have the tools necessary for learning and improving. The influx of knowledge that public parsers would bring would be absolutely immense.

Is a possibility of people caring about their DPS objectively worth the extra time and money that SE will have to spend on handling harassment tickets and a slower response time for potentially more important matters?

Don't forget that having a parser will not magically cause people to get better. They still have the choice to completely ignore it.

Also don't forget that a Bard having a parser means a lot less if they don't group up with other Bards, and even less if they're not geared similarly. The ST DPS a Dragoon or Monk can do is inherently higher than a Bard's, so they're not getting particularly useful information if they group with a Monk. They'll still need to go outside the game to know what's optimal for THEIR class and THEIR gear, which if they aren't doing now, probably won't start later.

Basically, a parser won't do anything if you don't have APPROPRIATE context for the information. If a Bard does 600 DPS and the Monk in the group does 500, the Bard sees they're out DPSing a Monk. Hooray! But... that's useless information, because the Monk is probably underperforming unless they're significantly undergeared from the Bard. But if they are significantly undergeared, then it's still useless information because they're comparing numbers that shouldn't be compared.

But to think the system would simply collapse because of the presence of this knowledge, that the DF experience would be inadvertently ruined because people actually know what is going on, rather than remaining clueless, is completely unfounded.

Which is why I've never said the system would simply collapse.

doomsday scenario that you

That I've never said.

You have no basis to claim that if SE were to introduce them into FF14, that the scenarios you describe would occur.

Considering the only scenario I've described is an increase (not total chaos), and people in this thread alone have already stated that they totally will do it if they wouldn't get banned for even mentioning they're parsing, then I do have a basis to say that the situation I described will occur.

Why is the onus on the people who disagree with you?

Because they're the ones claiming it will not happen despite people outright stating that they will do it.

What makes your point of view superior?

The fact that I'm going off of people outright stating that they'll do what I'm saying.

all we can do is look at similar games with existing implementation of public parsing to see how things worked out.

And WoW got a reputation for having a terrible community where people either badmouthed others' DPS for no reason or stood in things that hurt them because they were more worried about their DPS. It didn't get that reputation because it never happened. I've seen it myself. I'd gotten kicked from entry-level heroics in WoW on a fresh max level because my DPS was... at the level it should be for a fresh max level. And the other people were in raid gear and thought I should do their level of DPS. I'd seen people put down others' DPS in normal runs when they're not even the top DPS (I was, as a hunter, and pointed it out and shut them both up). I've seen people stand in bad things SIMPLY BECAUSE they figured the healer could keep them up and they would lose DPS time if they moved out. I quit that game BECAUSE of that community. So if you think that you can cover your ears and pretend it didn't happen, well, that's the same willful ignorance that you say isn't a good thing.

Why would anyone in their right mind prefer to leave the masses in the dark

Why are you asking this in a response to me when I've already stated repeatedly that parsers are useful tools for improvement? Is it maybe because you, like a majority of the pro-parsers in this thread, haven't bothered to actually read what someone's saying before lumping them into the extreme opposite of you want?

Exactly. The difference is that it is easy to see when the tank or healer aren't doing enough. To make things fair we need parser to see when DPS players aren't doing enough.

It's also really easy to see when DPS aren't doing enough. Namely, you wiped on a DPS check.

I do hope that you're keeping in mind that I've stated several times already that parsers absolutely are useful for raids and content that actually does have strict DPS checks.

If majority of players tells you that your dps is low... well sooner or later you might think about it and maybe it will motivate you to switch your role or improve.

And if nobody says anything about you needing to improve but then one or two groups do, even if they're right, what then?

No. I say that needs of several players in the group are more important than needs of one player.

The problem being, of course, that it only takes two people to kick someone. What if one of the DPS doesn't want to waste their time waiting for another tank to queue in, especially if they're potentially going to be just as slow, and was also perfectly comfortable going at the slower pace? Or what if the healer also prefers the slower pace? Then it's a 50/50 split of who wants the slower pace, but you're putting your own demands over what half the group wants.

And again, if they want a tank that's going to pull fast, they have the right to find a tank to queue with.

Enter DF as a dps role, tell the group that tank isn't pulling enough mobs and try to vote kick them.

Why would I? You're the one defending that terrible mindset.

If somebody is not contributing enough then I do not consider it unnecessary.

So if the content is being cleared, then that's enough, so any kick of them is unnecessary.

I think it's you that needs to magically prove that bad things will happen.

But I don't need to.

The people in this thread have done it for me by saying they'll do exactly what I'm saying.

I don't need to prove anything when the people who want parsers kindly do the job for me.

[Stupiduglytaru]

The day and weeks to follow when mch dropped, the community hated this class and lots of people recieved abuse or were outright excluded from content due to job choice.

I myself had first hand experience of being called out in the early days of Alex normal when a wipe happened due to failed dps check.

A mnk immediately said kick the mch they are shit dps to whicha healer in the group said, you do realize this mch is 300dps above you?

Food for thought.

Non parser users are quick enough to point the finger without having any evidence to back it up.

[AriaEnia]

I don't need to prove anything when the people who want parsers kindly do the job for me.

Pretty much what I see around here, especially in early pages.

I'm not against parsers, but I do really hope if it's going to be implemented, there will be a choice or vote system for the party in DF to activate and deactivate it.
I'm not a raider and I only play about 1 hour every day after coming home from work and so far, parser people I met in DF and Alexander were quick to judge and kick somebody, even though I haven't been kicked because my dps was somewhat satisfied them.
Maybe I need to play more, I dunno.

[Kaurhz]

I'm no seasoned veteran player, more casual (In this case, only play occasionally, and often when multi tasking)

The community for the most part is already destroyed. A fair portion of raiders are elitist monkeys. That said, the biggest problem really isn't the parses, but more so the people using them, so most anger is completely misguided. You're going to have elitist brats on any game, regardless. In most cases I'd be for parsers, only to the extent that they can help players unfamiliar with their classes, for whatever reason. Assuming it's used in the right hands.

There's plenty of segregation already in the community. Can't see parsers making the situation much worse than it already is. Particularly with Square-Enix pretty much promoting them with their silly idea of having raids heavily based around high damage output requirements as opposed to proper mechanics(This is on the assumption that most elitist players already use parsers).

[Aiselia]

I'm not against parsers, but I do really hope if it's going to be implemented, there will be a choice or vote system for the party in DF to activate and deactivate it.

I really think that's the best way to go to avoid stepping on peoples' toes as much as possible.

Always be able to see your own parse so that you know how much you're doing, optionally public (decided by each person so nobody is forced) for duty finder. Then add it as an option to enforce public when going as a full premade, so people can put in their party finders that it's going to be on and people can't hide their parses in the content that actually has DPS checks.
Maintain the rule that using third party parsers to see people who've got theirs set to private only to call them out on it is punishable. Put the stress on that if you want to control your group, you make your own group, and that if you queue to get random people, you accept that you aren't always going to get top-tier players.

That way everyone gets to see their own numbers, people don't get to whine about numbers in roulettes where they really don't matter, people can PF to their hearts' content to ensure that their important runs will succeed.
In addition, it can help avoid people getting confused over whether their numbers are good or not if the other DPS is not optimal either, or is of another class, or is a different ilvl.

There's really no realistic argument against this except from people who mistakenly think it's their job to police how others play when they intentionally queued up to get whoever the game decided should be matched with them. It gives all the benefits of having a parser while avoiding any arguments that it'll cause DF to become super toxic because without intentionally setting your parse to public in DF, there'd be no difference from what we have now.