The Real Problem with Parsers

[Aiselia]

One half of your argument

I've made more than two points, so you're already wrong. Let me guess what you chose to ignore.

Increase in harassment reports if people do start calling others out on their DPS or kicking because of it, and console limitations.

increase the rate at which people are harassed in content by their mere presence.

Which is proven by this thread.

You hold to this idea that the group should be beholden to the comfort of the individual.

If you queue to get random people, you should accept the random people you get, as long as you can clear the content.

SE has proclaimed that it is entirely acceptable to kick people out of your group because of differences in playstyle. This means that if a tank "didn't want to pull everything because they weren't comfortable doing it", and the rest of the group wants them to, and they refuse, then they are 100% legitimately able to be removed from the group because the way they way to play conflicts with the way the group wants to play.

Despite that only ever being an attempt to defend the worst parts of the community, it's also not a catch-all.

Lots of people quote that but few seem to know that in the same thread, they also refused to quantify what that actually means, and went ahead and specifically said to report any suspected violation any time you think it's abused and let the GMs decide. Know what that means? "Difference in playstyle" isn't a catch-all that makes you immune to being punished. Otherwise they wouldn't bother telling you to waste their time, because you could literally chalk anything up to difference in playstyle. "I didn't want to share loot" turns into "Having two casters is sub-optimal, so we're kicking you". There would be literally no reason to even pretend there are rules.

In fact, here's a direct quote from the thread where that was brought up:

"If the concern is that this will be used as an excuse to abuse the feature, if our investigation determines that they did perform their duties in an appropriate manner and were kicked due to unrealistic expectations, then it could be found to be an abuse of the vote dismiss feature."

Y'know what that means? If someone's trying but not matching your DPS expectations, but they're still doing acceptable DPS for that dungeon? Reportable! Kicking them could be abuse!

Know what else that means? If a tank's only pulling one group at a time because that's what they're comfortable with and they're performing their role as needed? Reportable! Kicking them could be abuse!

then we absolutely have the prerogative to vote kick that tank from our group in hopes of finding a tank more suitable to our playstyle.

And the tank absolutely has the prerogative to report you for votekick abuse because they were performing their duties in an appropriate manner and you kicked them for unrealistic expectations.

For a good many people, having the tools and knowledge that comes from parsers would allow them to find the gaps in their play style and improve.

Which is exactly why I've said repeatedly that parsers can be useful.

They would have the context of knowing how their gameplay compares to others, whether how they perform is good or bad, acceptable or otherwise.

If they get the right context. Someone pulling 600 DPS in groups with someone pulling 300 DPS is going to think they're doing great. Then they get someone who pulls 1200 and lolkicks them because they didn't know they could do better.

Yes, it is true that the introduction of public parsers would increase the amount of harassment and kicking that occurs based on subjectively low DPS.

So many people say this while also trying to argue that having a parser wouldn't do that.

However, on the flip side of that coin is all the positive benefit you can reap by suddenly enlightening a community of people that have been unwittingly dwelling in the dark, unable to know or conceptualize the metrics behind their performance. They will finally have the opportunity to see how well [or not] they are doing, and have the tools necessary for learning and improving. The influx of knowledge that public parsers would bring would be absolutely immense.

Is a possibility of people caring about their DPS objectively worth the extra time and money that SE will have to spend on handling harassment tickets and a slower response time for potentially more important matters?

Don't forget that having a parser will not magically cause people to get better. They still have the choice to completely ignore it.

Also don't forget that a Bard having a parser means a lot less if they don't group up with other Bards, and even less if they're not geared similarly. The ST DPS a Dragoon or Monk can do is inherently higher than a Bard's, so they're not getting particularly useful information if they group with a Monk. They'll still need to go outside the game to know what's optimal for THEIR class and THEIR gear, which if they aren't doing now, probably won't start later.

Basically, a parser won't do anything if you don't have APPROPRIATE context for the information. If a Bard does 600 DPS and the Monk in the group does 500, the Bard sees they're out DPSing a Monk. Hooray! But... that's useless information, because the Monk is probably underperforming unless they're significantly undergeared from the Bard. But if they are significantly undergeared, then it's still useless information because they're comparing numbers that shouldn't be compared.

But to think the system would simply collapse because of the presence of this knowledge, that the DF experience would be inadvertently ruined because people actually know what is going on, rather than remaining clueless, is completely unfounded.

Which is why I've never said the system would simply collapse.

doomsday scenario that you

That I've never said.

You have no basis to claim that if SE were to introduce them into FF14, that the scenarios you describe would occur.

Considering the only scenario I've described is an increase (not total chaos), and people in this thread alone have already stated that they totally will do it if they wouldn't get banned for even mentioning they're parsing, then I do have a basis to say that the situation I described will occur.

Why is the onus on the people who disagree with you?

Because they're the ones claiming it will not happen despite people outright stating that they will do it.

What makes your point of view superior?

The fact that I'm going off of people outright stating that they'll do what I'm saying.

all we can do is look at similar games with existing implementation of public parsing to see how things worked out.

And WoW got a reputation for having a terrible community where people either badmouthed others' DPS for no reason or stood in things that hurt them because they were more worried about their DPS. It didn't get that reputation because it never happened. I've seen it myself. I'd gotten kicked from entry-level heroics in WoW on a fresh max level because my DPS was... at the level it should be for a fresh max level. And the other people were in raid gear and thought I should do their level of DPS. I'd seen people put down others' DPS in normal runs when they're not even the top DPS (I was, as a hunter, and pointed it out and shut them both up). I've seen people stand in bad things SIMPLY BECAUSE they figured the healer could keep them up and they would lose DPS time if they moved out. I quit that game BECAUSE of that community. So if you think that you can cover your ears and pretend it didn't happen, well, that's the same willful ignorance that you say isn't a good thing.

Why would anyone in their right mind prefer to leave the masses in the dark

Why are you asking this in a response to me when I've already stated repeatedly that parsers are useful tools for improvement? Is it maybe because you, like a majority of the pro-parsers in this thread, haven't bothered to actually read what someone's saying before lumping them into the extreme opposite of you want?

Exactly. The difference is that it is easy to see when the tank or healer aren't doing enough. To make things fair we need parser to see when DPS players aren't doing enough.

It's also really easy to see when DPS aren't doing enough. Namely, you wiped on a DPS check.

I do hope that you're keeping in mind that I've stated several times already that parsers absolutely are useful for raids and content that actually does have strict DPS checks.

If majority of players tells you that your dps is low... well sooner or later you might think about it and maybe it will motivate you to switch your role or improve.

And if nobody says anything about you needing to improve but then one or two groups do, even if they're right, what then?

No. I say that needs of several players in the group are more important than needs of one player.

The problem being, of course, that it only takes two people to kick someone. What if one of the DPS doesn't want to waste their time waiting for another tank to queue in, especially if they're potentially going to be just as slow, and was also perfectly comfortable going at the slower pace? Or what if the healer also prefers the slower pace? Then it's a 50/50 split of who wants the slower pace, but you're putting your own demands over what half the group wants.

And again, if they want a tank that's going to pull fast, they have the right to find a tank to queue with.

Enter DF as a dps role, tell the group that tank isn't pulling enough mobs and try to vote kick them.

Why would I? You're the one defending that terrible mindset.

If somebody is not contributing enough then I do not consider it unnecessary.

So if the content is being cleared, then that's enough, so any kick of them is unnecessary.

I think it's you that needs to magically prove that bad things will happen.

But I don't need to.

The people in this thread have done it for me by saying they'll do exactly what I'm saying.

I don't need to prove anything when the people who want parsers kindly do the job for me.