The Real Problem with Parsers

[Archaell]

You may not want to accept it, but if both DPS are pulling 300 DPS and you're still clearing the content, then they're doing acceptable DPS for the content. Objectively. You may subjectively want them to do more, but the game objectively decides what's acceptable.

What happens when you get tank or healer in the group who do the same amount of work as the 300 DPS players? I am quite certain that somebody has to explain why they can't keep up the enmity or tank alive.

The problem comes in when people have different ideas of what's acceptable. Expert roulette only requires an ilvl of 145. That means it's expected to be cleared with i145 gear-sized DPS.

Are you suggesting that everyone in the game will know an OBJECTIVE "acceptable" DPS level based on the gear requirements and accept to put out a minimum of that amount, and conversely accept that anyone putting out at least that minimal amount is being acceptable for the dungeon? But where is this magic objective number going to come from?

Suddenly SE has to come up with a new set of rules and new calculations in order to quantify what levels of DPS are acceptable that they can put on the DF listing so you know not to go if you don't qualify, or else you can be kicked "in fairness".

This magic number is going to come from... players playing the game. If you see DPS player doing 1000 dps and similarly geared another player who is doing 300 DPS, it isn't too hard to tell who is and who isn't putting in enough effort.

That doesn't answer my question. My question was, would it be fine if people kicked tanks for pulling a single group at a time because that was what they were comfortable with? For that matter, are you fine with people kicking tanks because they stay in tank stance instead of switching to DPS stance to make the run faster, simply because they're not comfortable removing their tankiness or not comfortable with their threat generation?

Are you fine with people kicking healers for solely healing instead of stance dancing because they're not comfortable with it and don't want to risk a wipe because they didn't do it right?

Yes, I am okay with it. If the group can't stand small pulls, tank stanced tank or healer who doesn't want to dps then they are free to kick them. Clearly these guys deserve to wait for a new tank/healer, while the tank/healer gets a new reasonable group in matter of seconds.

[Aiselia]

What happens when you get tank or healer in the group who do the same amount of work as the 300 DPS players? I am quite certain that somebody has to explain why they can't keep up the enmity or tank alive.

Then the entire group's going nowhere and a parser won't do anything to save them.

This magic number is going to come from... players playing the game.

But then that makes the number subjective. If someone did all right with 500 DPS and wasn't kicked before, then suddenly some group comes along that demands 1,000, what's the person supposed to take away from that?

I'll tell you the most likely scenario: "Man, those guys were jerks. I've never had problems with my DPS before. They're just elitists."

The less likely scenario is that they'll give a crap to get better.

Yes, I am okay with it.

Then it's funny how you advocate putting the needs of others before yourself and then say it's okay if people put their own wants ahead of the tank or healer.

You're also an example of the worst kind of person that should be advocating for a parser, especially when the common argument against parsers is that it'll cause more kicks that are unnecessary.

[Archaell]

Then the entire group's going nowhere and a parser won't do anything to save them.

Exactly. The difference is that it is easy to see when the tank or healer aren't doing enough. To make things fair we need parser to see when DPS players aren't doing enough.

But then that makes the number subjective. If someone did all right with 500 DPS and wasn't kicked before, then suddenly some group comes along that demands 1,000, what's the person supposed to take away from that?

I'll tell you the most likely scenario: "Man, those guys were jerks. I've never had problems with my DPS before. They're just elitists."

The less likely scenario is that they'll give a crap to get better.

Yes, it is subjective. It depends on every single group how much are they going to require. If majority of players tells you that your dps is low... well sooner or later you might think about it and maybe it will motivate you to switch your role or improve.

Then it's funny how you advocate putting the needs of others before yourself and then say it's okay if people put their own wants ahead of the tank or healer.

No. I say that needs of several players in the group are more important than needs of one player. Also you can try it. Enter DF as a dps role, tell the group that tank isn't pulling enough mobs and try to vote kick them. I am looking froward to read what happens next.

You're also an example of the worst kind of person that should be advocating for a parser, especially when the common argument against parsers is that it'll cause more kicks that are unnecessary.

Well yeah, I might not be best suited to advocate parsers as I am being too much realistic. In regard to unnecessary kicks... here comes the catch. If somebody is not contributing enough then I do not consider it unnecessary.

[rappa]

Probably, the first days after parser implementation would bring a unnecessary kicks. The community would have to acommodate and discover which numbers are fine and which are low or unacceptable.

There are two facts would occur:

- Players don't like to be kicked and search info to improve their rotations and playstyle.
- They don't care about stuff and join with friends who tolerate theirs low performance.

[TiaHeart]

Exactly. The difference is that it is easy to see when the tank or healer aren't doing enough. To make things fair we need parser to see when DPS players aren't doing enough.

We dont need "fairness" when its bad for some roles good for others, by making it bad for everyone. Why is this shitty argument all over the forum?
When i see people unable to do the task at hand (tank new primae) i advice them to practice content on dd first and think about how tanks work it, then tank it yourself.
If my friend wants to pick up the game and will be bad quite a while or forever, i tell him it has the option to get all classes on 1 char. He should go dd first cuz it has the least responsibility, and switch to another role later if he desires it.

Well yeah, I might not be best suited to advocate parsers as I am being too much realistic

No sir, thats really not how it is. People pick up any random line of your post as they wish and tear it apart, because you advocate bad things. Parsers may be a good thing if you follow other peoples logic. Following yours just make em look bad.

[TiaHeart]

What happens...

Ive seen that a billion times. What happened? People let of steam and pet their egos. FC\LS "Man i just drgtanked whole ini xy". Healer got all commends. What didnt happen? Abuse of the other players. Thank god for that.

If the group can't stand...

Im perfectly fine with the system in place. If you want a PARTY that fits your needs in terms of performance use PARTYfinder. If you just want to run a DUTY use DUTYfinder. We all get annoyed there at times, but unless it makes people FAIL the DUTY, kicking people who dont misbehave is not an option. There are reasons on the kicklist. "underperforming" isnt on. There is a timelimit for duties. It is 90 minutes. Not 30. There is the option to leave and take a fine for it, because your behaviour is not given its blessing by the system in place. As sb pointed out, it depends on wether the content is still obviously doable.
Thanks iselia and others for writing so much, takes work off others.

[TiaHeart]

By the way content that is foreseen to cause major issues on the df is usually restricted to premades. Because u know... See above. System. Reason.
Vote yes: personal parsers, optional parsers, Adding "underperforming" as kickreason IF entered premade
Vote no: global parsing, approving people kicking others bcuz of a superiority/inferiority complex