The Real Problem with Parsers

[T0rin]

Here is the thing. There is no objective "acceptable" DPS short of "being able to clear the content".

If you can clear the content, you are doing enough DPS. Anything extra is a bonus to make it faster. Pulling one pack of mobs at a time? You can clear it. Pulling all the things and AOEing them down? You just clear it faster.

Are you claiming that you would be absolutely fine with a tank being kicked out of a run for NO reason other than that they didn't want to pull everything because they weren't comfortable doing it, because they should put their comfort behind what everybody else wants?

If you want to control your group and how fast you clear it, you are perfectly capable of creating a premade group. Expert Roulette lets you queue as a full group, even. You require zero random people. You can queue with three friends and clear it exactly as fast as you want.

If you don't want to accept that some people won't play to your standards, then you shouldn't be using DF when you have the ability to completely control whether or not the other people in your group will play to your standards. That would be like a gambler rolling dice and getting annoyed when they lose because they hate how dice have sides that aren't beneficial to them.

One half of your argument is that public parsers will turn more people into jerks, and increase the rate at which people are harassed in content by their mere presence. And the quote listed above is the very crux of the other half of your argument.

You hold to this idea that the group should be beholden to the comfort of the individual. Killing one target at a time, killing smaller packs instead of larger packs. You think it is the prerogative of the individual to be allowed to play how they will in DF, based on what makes them comfortable. This seems also to extend to the amount of DPS being done and whether it is sufficient to clear content. One simple way to explain how you couldn't be more wrong, is that SE has proclaimed that it is entirely acceptable to kick people out of your group because of differences in playstyle. This means that if a tank "didn't want to pull everything because they weren't comfortable doing it", and the rest of the group wants them to, and they refuse, then they are 100% legitimately able to be removed from the group because the way they way to play conflicts with the way the group wants to play.

You talk about the DF as though it is inherently a mixed bag, that you go in having no idea what you will get, and that if you don't like what you got, you should have gone in with a premade. The reality that the precedent that SE has set is the exact opposite. If me and a buddy go into a DF together, and we get a tank that wants to pull small packs and kill 1 target at a time, then we absolutely have the prerogative to vote kick that tank from our group in hopes of finding a tank more suitable to our playstyle. We also have the option to try to convince the existing tank to play more how we want to play. It's up to us! In this case, the will of the many outweighs the will of the few. And SE stands behind this idea.

You repeatedly parrot the idea that the onus of how you play in DF is on you, and that if you want strict control over how your Neverreap run goes, you have but one option: go with a pre-made. That simply isn't the case. The onus is on the individual to play how the group wants to play, not the other way around. The individual can either play along, leave themselves, be tolerated or be removed. BUT, regardless of their choice, if the group wants you as a tank to do big pulls, because there are two heavily geared DPS and a healer in the group to support it, and you refuse because you're not comfortable, they ABSOLUTELY have the option to vote kick you out immediately.

So, disregarding issues of tank playstyle, this same concept extends to DPS as well. If someone is doing 300 DPS in an instance and the whole group has something else in mind (i.e. a quick clear for daily expert roulette), then that 300 DPS player can either step it up, be tolerated or be removed. The onus is NOT on the group to tolerate a low DPS 'bad' player simply because you can eventually clear content no matter how awful they are. The group has the means and the justification to remove said player from the group.

Whether individual or public parsers are introduced in the future, or neither, we still have unofficial parsers. People are still going to use them, whether SE implements one of their own. The main caveat is that you have to keep it on the downlow, or risk being punished as a result. Nearly everyone who parses has grown accustomed to this reality, and what ends up happening is that rather than confronting the offender and explaining the issue, they must remain silent and basically have two options: tolerate or kick. Even if nothing official is ever introduced, people will still parse and this will still happen. And to me, that's a shame. This corner people are being forced into is very unfortunate. For a good many people, having the tools and knowledge that comes from parsers would allow them to find the gaps in their play style and improve. They would have the context of knowing how their gameplay compares to others, whether how they perform is good or bad, acceptable or otherwise. But right now, mainly due to the fear of what would come with the introduction of a public parser, people largely remain ignorant.

To me, willful ignorance is never a good thing. There is no amount of hurt feelings and disappointment that can counteract the negative impact on the community by willfully forcing them to remain ignorant about the reality of DPS being done.

Yes, it is true that the introduction of public parsers would increase the amount of harassment and kicking that occurs based on subjectively low DPS. Sadly, jerks will always be jerks, regardless of the scenario. This makes it easier for some, which is also true. However, on the flip side of that coin is all the positive benefit you can reap by suddenly enlightening a community of people that have been unwittingly dwelling in the dark, unable to know or conceptualize the metrics behind their performance. They will finally have the opportunity to see how well [or not] they are doing, and have the tools necessary for learning and improving. The influx of knowledge that public parsers would bring would be absolutely immense.

For those concerned about the abuse.. well, you still have the option to report harassment, just as always. And people who would harass because of the knowledge that public parsing brought them should indeed go punished, just as they do now. But to think the system would simply collapse because of the presence of this knowledge, that the DF experience would be inadvertently ruined because people actually know what is going on, rather than remaining clueless, is completely unfounded. Turn to example like WoW, who have always had the option of supported parsing and see how this doomsday scenario that you and others like you repeatedly parrot, simply does not occur. You have no basis to claim that if SE were to introduce them into FF14, that the scenarios you describe would occur. You repeatedly say 'prove it' in reference to people saying that it wouldn't, and that is simply inane. Why is the onus on the people who disagree with you? How do you get off claiming one reality, and then turning around and refuting another possible reality simple because they cannot prove it. What makes your point of view superior? The answer is nothing, because it isn't.

Nobody knows exactly what will occur, all we can do is look at similar games with existing implementation of public parsing to see how things worked out. All evidence points to the reality you describe not occurring. All of the fear-mongering that goes on in this thread has absolutely no basis in reality. We all have to make educated deductions about the future of the game in respect to the introduction of parsers, but there is no evidence that points to the scenarios you describe becoming true. In fact, all of the evidence points to the direct contrary.

Parsing is simply a means to an end: the attainment of knowledge. Why would anyone in their right mind prefer to leave the masses in the dark... ignorant and unwilling to move forward, simply to avoid the punishable behavior of a small minority? There is such an insane wellspring of improvement waiting to be tapped, and the only thing holding it back is the fear that a small minority of under-performers would become uncomfortable with facing the reality of what they are.

How much DPS is enough DPS is completely subjective and is to be determined by the people who you choose to play the game with. You can solo all of the quests you want, and never once be questioned about your DPS, but once you step foot into the public domain, once you opt to participate in DF/PF, you subject yourself to the will of the group. And if the group deems that your performance is lacking, it is their prerogative to remove you from the group or tolerate your performance. But they are never subject to your will alone, and that is why public parsing will be a largely net benefit to the community, as opposed to a detriment.

[Aiselia]

One half of your argument

I've made more than two points, so you're already wrong. Let me guess what you chose to ignore.

Increase in harassment reports if people do start calling others out on their DPS or kicking because of it, and console limitations.

increase the rate at which people are harassed in content by their mere presence.

Which is proven by this thread.

You hold to this idea that the group should be beholden to the comfort of the individual.

If you queue to get random people, you should accept the random people you get, as long as you can clear the content.

SE has proclaimed that it is entirely acceptable to kick people out of your group because of differences in playstyle. This means that if a tank "didn't want to pull everything because they weren't comfortable doing it", and the rest of the group wants them to, and they refuse, then they are 100% legitimately able to be removed from the group because the way they way to play conflicts with the way the group wants to play.

Despite that only ever being an attempt to defend the worst parts of the community, it's also not a catch-all.

Lots of people quote that but few seem to know that in the same thread, they also refused to quantify what that actually means, and went ahead and specifically said to report any suspected violation any time you think it's abused and let the GMs decide. Know what that means? "Difference in playstyle" isn't a catch-all that makes you immune to being punished. Otherwise they wouldn't bother telling you to waste their time, because you could literally chalk anything up to difference in playstyle. "I didn't want to share loot" turns into "Having two casters is sub-optimal, so we're kicking you". There would be literally no reason to even pretend there are rules.

In fact, here's a direct quote from the thread where that was brought up:

"If the concern is that this will be used as an excuse to abuse the feature, if our investigation determines that they did perform their duties in an appropriate manner and were kicked due to unrealistic expectations, then it could be found to be an abuse of the vote dismiss feature."

Y'know what that means? If someone's trying but not matching your DPS expectations, but they're still doing acceptable DPS for that dungeon? Reportable! Kicking them could be abuse!

Know what else that means? If a tank's only pulling one group at a time because that's what they're comfortable with and they're performing their role as needed? Reportable! Kicking them could be abuse!

then we absolutely have the prerogative to vote kick that tank from our group in hopes of finding a tank more suitable to our playstyle.

And the tank absolutely has the prerogative to report you for votekick abuse because they were performing their duties in an appropriate manner and you kicked them for unrealistic expectations.

For a good many people, having the tools and knowledge that comes from parsers would allow them to find the gaps in their play style and improve.

Which is exactly why I've said repeatedly that parsers can be useful.

They would have the context of knowing how their gameplay compares to others, whether how they perform is good or bad, acceptable or otherwise.

If they get the right context. Someone pulling 600 DPS in groups with someone pulling 300 DPS is going to think they're doing great. Then they get someone who pulls 1200 and lolkicks them because they didn't know they could do better.

Yes, it is true that the introduction of public parsers would increase the amount of harassment and kicking that occurs based on subjectively low DPS.

So many people say this while also trying to argue that having a parser wouldn't do that.

However, on the flip side of that coin is all the positive benefit you can reap by suddenly enlightening a community of people that have been unwittingly dwelling in the dark, unable to know or conceptualize the metrics behind their performance. They will finally have the opportunity to see how well [or not] they are doing, and have the tools necessary for learning and improving. The influx of knowledge that public parsers would bring would be absolutely immense.

Is a possibility of people caring about their DPS objectively worth the extra time and money that SE will have to spend on handling harassment tickets and a slower response time for potentially more important matters?

Don't forget that having a parser will not magically cause people to get better. They still have the choice to completely ignore it.

Also don't forget that a Bard having a parser means a lot less if they don't group up with other Bards, and even less if they're not geared similarly. The ST DPS a Dragoon or Monk can do is inherently higher than a Bard's, so they're not getting particularly useful information if they group with a Monk. They'll still need to go outside the game to know what's optimal for THEIR class and THEIR gear, which if they aren't doing now, probably won't start later.

Basically, a parser won't do anything if you don't have APPROPRIATE context for the information. If a Bard does 600 DPS and the Monk in the group does 500, the Bard sees they're out DPSing a Monk. Hooray! But... that's useless information, because the Monk is probably underperforming unless they're significantly undergeared from the Bard. But if they are significantly undergeared, then it's still useless information because they're comparing numbers that shouldn't be compared.

But to think the system would simply collapse because of the presence of this knowledge, that the DF experience would be inadvertently ruined because people actually know what is going on, rather than remaining clueless, is completely unfounded.

Which is why I've never said the system would simply collapse.

doomsday scenario that you

That I've never said.

You have no basis to claim that if SE were to introduce them into FF14, that the scenarios you describe would occur.

Considering the only scenario I've described is an increase (not total chaos), and people in this thread alone have already stated that they totally will do it if they wouldn't get banned for even mentioning they're parsing, then I do have a basis to say that the situation I described will occur.

Why is the onus on the people who disagree with you?

Because they're the ones claiming it will not happen despite people outright stating that they will do it.

What makes your point of view superior?

The fact that I'm going off of people outright stating that they'll do what I'm saying.

all we can do is look at similar games with existing implementation of public parsing to see how things worked out.

And WoW got a reputation for having a terrible community where people either badmouthed others' DPS for no reason or stood in things that hurt them because they were more worried about their DPS. It didn't get that reputation because it never happened. I've seen it myself. I'd gotten kicked from entry-level heroics in WoW on a fresh max level because my DPS was... at the level it should be for a fresh max level. And the other people were in raid gear and thought I should do their level of DPS. I'd seen people put down others' DPS in normal runs when they're not even the top DPS (I was, as a hunter, and pointed it out and shut them both up). I've seen people stand in bad things SIMPLY BECAUSE they figured the healer could keep them up and they would lose DPS time if they moved out. I quit that game BECAUSE of that community. So if you think that you can cover your ears and pretend it didn't happen, well, that's the same willful ignorance that you say isn't a good thing.

Why would anyone in their right mind prefer to leave the masses in the dark

Why are you asking this in a response to me when I've already stated repeatedly that parsers are useful tools for improvement? Is it maybe because you, like a majority of the pro-parsers in this thread, haven't bothered to actually read what someone's saying before lumping them into the extreme opposite of you want?

Exactly. The difference is that it is easy to see when the tank or healer aren't doing enough. To make things fair we need parser to see when DPS players aren't doing enough.

It's also really easy to see when DPS aren't doing enough. Namely, you wiped on a DPS check.

I do hope that you're keeping in mind that I've stated several times already that parsers absolutely are useful for raids and content that actually does have strict DPS checks.

If majority of players tells you that your dps is low... well sooner or later you might think about it and maybe it will motivate you to switch your role or improve.

And if nobody says anything about you needing to improve but then one or two groups do, even if they're right, what then?

No. I say that needs of several players in the group are more important than needs of one player.

The problem being, of course, that it only takes two people to kick someone. What if one of the DPS doesn't want to waste their time waiting for another tank to queue in, especially if they're potentially going to be just as slow, and was also perfectly comfortable going at the slower pace? Or what if the healer also prefers the slower pace? Then it's a 50/50 split of who wants the slower pace, but you're putting your own demands over what half the group wants.

And again, if they want a tank that's going to pull fast, they have the right to find a tank to queue with.

Enter DF as a dps role, tell the group that tank isn't pulling enough mobs and try to vote kick them.

Why would I? You're the one defending that terrible mindset.

If somebody is not contributing enough then I do not consider it unnecessary.

So if the content is being cleared, then that's enough, so any kick of them is unnecessary.

I think it's you that needs to magically prove that bad things will happen.

But I don't need to.

The people in this thread have done it for me by saying they'll do exactly what I'm saying.

I don't need to prove anything when the people who want parsers kindly do the job for me.

[AriaEnia]

I don't need to prove anything when the people who want parsers kindly do the job for me.

Pretty much what I see around here, especially in early pages.

I'm not against parsers, but I do really hope if it's going to be implemented, there will be a choice or vote system for the party in DF to activate and deactivate it.
I'm not a raider and I only play about 1 hour every day after coming home from work and so far, parser people I met in DF and Alexander were quick to judge and kick somebody, even though I haven't been kicked because my dps was somewhat satisfied them.
Maybe I need to play more, I dunno.

[Aiselia]

I'm not against parsers, but I do really hope if it's going to be implemented, there will be a choice or vote system for the party in DF to activate and deactivate it.

I really think that's the best way to go to avoid stepping on peoples' toes as much as possible.

Always be able to see your own parse so that you know how much you're doing, optionally public (decided by each person so nobody is forced) for duty finder. Then add it as an option to enforce public when going as a full premade, so people can put in their party finders that it's going to be on and people can't hide their parses in the content that actually has DPS checks.
Maintain the rule that using third party parsers to see people who've got theirs set to private only to call them out on it is punishable. Put the stress on that if you want to control your group, you make your own group, and that if you queue to get random people, you accept that you aren't always going to get top-tier players.

That way everyone gets to see their own numbers, people don't get to whine about numbers in roulettes where they really don't matter, people can PF to their hearts' content to ensure that their important runs will succeed.
In addition, it can help avoid people getting confused over whether their numbers are good or not if the other DPS is not optimal either, or is of another class, or is a different ilvl.

There's really no realistic argument against this except from people who mistakenly think it's their job to police how others play when they intentionally queued up to get whoever the game decided should be matched with them. It gives all the benefits of having a parser while avoiding any arguments that it'll cause DF to become super toxic because without intentionally setting your parse to public in DF, there'd be no difference from what we have now.