The Real Problem with Parsers

[JackFross]

Parsers make calculations too. Probably the same ones you have when using Rxcel. Excel isn't different from parsers is the point I'm making here. But using excel over parsers just makes it unnecessary hard and time consuming on whoever decides to use that. By that sense, if you really wanted to, you could harass others using excel. Simply takes longer and more effort.

The same ones? No. I'm calculating optimal stuff and the stuff above was calculating the advantages of a given buff to compare it against an assumption I made. All that a parser would have done for me in that situation is tabulate the data in exactly the same way I see it in the battle log. It would have been the same amount of work either way. Referring to what is essentially a calculator as a third-party program on the same level as something that scrapes data from the game and tabulates it for you is a bit of a stretch, but your point is valid, regardless.

[Viridiana]

//Yeah, those points don't all spit out exactly the same values and the variance isn't 0, but the general trend is linear, regardless. The exact linear correspondence isn't necessarily an easy thing to find, but to openly say "Potencies sometimes aren't linear" and then throw data in my face that is essentially linear feels like you're insulting my intelligence or something.

Show me a linear regression formula that hits all the data points I provided in that first post. Because I haven't been able to find one, even with Excel. And not "within 1%", either. Within rounding error. And of course, the second link I provided has numbers that are 2% off. Oh, and they aren't even consistently off in the same direction, as the first link shows. In fact, they aren't even consistently off. Which has been my point all along: it's impossible to derive a precise damage ratio based only on the potency ratio. Is it off by enough to substantially change things? Probably not? Then again, my NIN numbers show Raiton doing less damage than expected from a 360 potency attack, and Raiton is already on shaky ground to start with, so maybe...

[JackFross]

This is a discussion for another thread, tbh, but out of curiosity, how many data points are you getting where you find those min/max values? You only seem to record those two rather than the full range, so I'm just curious how many times you're using these longer cooldown skills like Sneak Attack.

And the fact that it's vaguely NOT perfectly linear doesn't change the fact that, for all intents and purposes beyond *precise* calculation, it's linear "enough" to use ratios between potencies as direct correspondences to ratios between damage outputs. You're splitting hairs to prove my discussion of optimization wrong when none of your data does anything to disrupt the things I discussed in any notable way.


I don't deny that it's wonky, but the variances in the linear trend of the potencies don't matter *enough* to make the practice of using potencies as approximations of damage ratios ineffective/incorrect to any reasonable extent.

(so optimal rotations can still be reasoned out through mathematics performed on values provided in-game, without the use of a parsing program to record your actual damage output)

[HoodRat]

People still parse dungeons? I had to stop after the numerous depressing runs where my dps was higher than the healer's and both dps' combined.

[Viridiana]

This is a discussion for another thread, tbh, but out of curiosity, how many data points are you getting where you find those min/max values? You only seem to record those two rather than the full range, so I'm just curious how many times you're using these longer cooldown skills like Sneak Attack.

As many as it took to get the ratio very close to 21/19 for max/min. Not a big deal for, say, the Mutilate numbers, which I could usually get in about 30 seconds or so due to the low spread. Getting the SA numbers…let's just say there's a reason I don't also have TA numbers there. But to speak to the accuracy of the SA numbers, my strategy for determining accuracy is this. Take max/min (1593/1440) and subtract it from the 5% spread ratio (1.05/.95, or 21/19). If you get a negative number, you almost certainly have the full spread, because the spread is already bigger than ±5%. If it's positive, take the reciprocal and compare to the max value. In this case, that's 1826.5 vs 1593. I'd say that the spread is accurate to one point in about 1827 and so I wouldn't expect another data point.

[bardaboo]

So bottom line... unless you wanna waste a bunch of time doing math... parsers are cool

[Kuroyasha]

So bottom line... unless you wanna waste a bunch of time doing math... parsers are cool

this made me laugh. GG

[JackFross]

this made me laugh. GG

I didn't respond to it because they're not wrong! lol

[JonBigwood]

I think parsers have their place and allow people to get better at their job. As they are now, the disadvantage is that players in PS4 cannot install one and have to ask a friend to parse them (not that great a deal but inconvenient.) I see the good side of parsing being something private.

Parsing people at leveling dungeons or duty roulettes, except to know how well or bad you do, does not look too practical. A stranger won't learn a new rotation inside a dungeon, and just some tips can be given without parsing (at your own risk many times.) When you enter a leveling dungeon you know people are learning and some will be better than others. In Duty Finder you take the risk to meet not so good players or maybe players just at entry level or new to the place, for the convenience of not having to make a premade party.

I don't think kicking someone out of a dungeon (duty finder) for playing under average is justified. I can't recall all motives for kicking, but they are like being afk, being disconnected, harassment, etc. Playing terribly and with no interest, or being very undergeared, or very wrongly geared (spiritbonding all crafting gear for example) may be considered harassment, but being unexperienced or under averaged skilled not. Unwillingness to co-operate may be considered harassment too.

Party Finder is different, since you make a group that needs to progress or farm and there is much more freedom to kick. It is in extreme primals or difficult raids where parsers make sense (and striking dummies of course.) They allow you to discover you are underperforming and work to get better. Making just a few changes may improve the performance a lot, and you might not be aware of your low numbers if nobody says it to you, nor have good way of improving wihout measuring. It may be necessary to kick someone who underperforms if you want to succeed. Being polite and helpful when kicking is important too.

Edit: About personal parsers, better that than nothing, but it is more useful if you can compare. If you only see your numbers you don't know how well/bad you do unless other people tell you what is considered good/bad at that gear.

[Alex_Lenderson]

I think parsers have their place and allow people to get better at their job. As they are now, the disadvantage is that players in PS4 cannot install one and have to ask a friend to parse them (not that great a deal but inconvenient.) I see the good side of parsing being something private.

Parsing people at leveling dungeons or duty roulettes, except to know how well or bad you do, does not look too practical. A stranger won't learn a new rotation inside a dungeon, and just some tips can be given without parsing (at your own risk many times.) When you enter a leveling dungeon you know people are learning and some will be better than others. In Duty Finder you take the risk to meet not so good players or maybe players just at entry level or new to the place, for the convenience of not having to make a premade party.

I don't think kicking someone out of a dungeon (duty finder) for playing under average is justified. I can't recall all motives for kicking, but they are like being afk, being disconnected, harassment, etc. Playing terribly and with no interest, or being very undergeared, or very wrongly geared (spiritbonding all crafting gear for example) may be considered harassment, but being unexperienced or under averaged skilled not. Unwillingness to co-operate may be considered harassment too.

Party Finder is different, since you make a group that needs to progress or farm and there is much more freedom to kick. It is in extreme primals or difficult raids where parsers make sense (and striking dummies of course.) They allow you to discover you are underperforming and work to get better. Making just a few changes may improve the performance a lot, and you might not be aware of your low numbers if nobody says it to you, nor have good way of improving wihout measuring. It may be necessary to kick someone who underperforms if you want to succeed. Being polite and helpful when kicking is important too.

Edit: About personal parsers, better that than nothing, but it is more useful if you can compare. If you only see your numbers you don't know how well/bad you do unless other people tell you what is considered good/bad at that gear.

But you end up doing the same dungeons over and over again. A personal parser would let you see how you did and see if you are improving.