The Real Problem with Parsers

[rappa]

Without parser and zero clue how dps are doing, the game gonna be a cesspool where normal content will be nerfed.

A lot of good and average players are avoiding DF. Enough threads about "ice mages", "Heavy Shot bards", "not positional mnk/drg/ninjas",... I enjoyed to use DF, but wipe for low dps, zero performance and apathic players left me a bitter taste. Be lvl 50+ and zero knowledge about your job is disheartening

And no, nobody gonna kick one guy for 50 dps less. Doing 300, 400, 500 dps less yes. It's a mmo, where you play together others persons, you have to acommodate your playstyle or join with friends. All players want bosses and content killed. Underperforming and laziness with unknown is not allowed.

[Aiselia]

Well he definitely had the MIND to improve.

Maybe he thought nobody else would MIND what he was wearing.

But even then you have the off chance that players do not know their primary stats

Which is better served by saying "Hey, I noticed you had mind accessories on. Those specifically increase healing. A bard should be using Dexterity to increase their damage." And not "dude, what is the reason to use mind accessories in a bard, Votekick attempt, facepalm".

Thats why I even mentioned that this screenshot is a terrible example to prove either side on whether or not having a parser is good.

And that's the only thing I'm saying about this. It doesn't have anything to do with why a parser is or isn't needed, because a parser would change absolutely nothing about that situation. I'm not saying parsers cannot prove someone is underperforming, I'm saying that it's nowhere near necessary when someone is just literally wearing the wrong gear.

Will be a pain if he doesn't learn anything from his job.

Well, maybe you should have tried to correct him and help. Kicking him without telling him what he should be using is not going to make him get better. It's just going to make him think you're a jerk and not care what you say because he thinks you're a jerk.

other people have the right to insult you, look down on you or harass you

No they don't. That's why there's rules against it.

you have to acommodate your playstyle or join with friends.

How come other people have to accommodate you instead of you accommodating them? What's stopping you from joining with friends if you want to get through quickly because you know exactly how much DPS people are going to put out?

[Viridiana]

When does it not? I can't say I've ever seen such an example. I'd like for you to provide one, since I'm legitimately curious. It would be more helpful than acting smug and pretending to know something I don't know without providing anything to back you up.

Sure. Have this post, this post, this post and if you really want I have a spreadsheet I could upload again...

However, I just ran tests on it hoping to confirm the way the tooltips say it. I was proven wrong. I didn't use a parser for this, since I feel like all of this was just an attempt to bait me into doing so. I scraped the data from my combat log by hand and entered it into excel to run the calculations.

Not attempting to get you to use a parser (though ACT has this nifty sort feature that lets you easily find min/max damage, but I digress). Simply showing that trying to math out potencies doesn't quite tell the full story.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I wonder why using another third party program as a tool, but you manually copied the data *coughdataminingcough* and wrote the formula yourself is considered "fine". But a parser that does the exact same you do in excel automatically for you isn't - Which also saves you 90% of the time spend over manually doing things.

[JackFross]

Sure. Have this post, this post, this post and if you really want I have a spreadsheet I could upload again...

Well, I really hope you aren't serious...

http://puu.sh/kpfn4/3a320509a3.png

... because if you're going to try and tell me that the first link proves that there is anything other than a linear correspondence with potencies, I really don't know what to tell you. The other links all expound on the same data. Like. If you're saying one is 1% off of being exactly the correct proportion, you're making mountains out of molehills.

//Yeah, those points don't all spit out exactly the same values and the variance isn't 0, but the general trend is linear, regardless. The exact linear correspondence isn't necessarily an easy thing to find, but to openly say "Potencies sometimes aren't linear" and then throw data in my face that is essentially linear feels like you're insulting my intelligence or something.

I wonder why using another third party program as a tool, but you manually copied the data *coughdataminingcough* and wrote the formula yourself is considered "fine". But a parser that does the exact same you do in excel automatically for you isn't - Which also saves you 90% of the time spend over manually doing things.

Because I'm using it to make calculations, I'm not having it read through FFXIV's files automatically to scrape and compile data for me. I really don't feel like digging through the ToS to find the exact line that prohibits datamining for you.

Though, again. Parsing programs aren't *technically* outlawed, since the GMs (generally) won't care unless you use the data they give you to harass other players.

[Clarkamite]

I'm gonna have to ask, what is your point with you explaining how you're calculating potencies? I hope you don't think I mean that in a condescending way, I'm just confused by what that adds to the conversation. Admittedly, while I've been a part of this discussion from the beginning, I don't check back every day. I just feel like showing how you can mathematically calculate a number value that doesn't actually translate directly to what a DPS meter would say for a given fight other than perhaps a dummy fight, is not a great argument against parsing.

Not even saying you're on the side of keeping parsers out of PS players hands. I can see you did say that tool would be useful earlier on, I'm just wondering what the goal is with calculating potencies in excel and then showing us that here. To me it means, "This is the amount of potency your job potentially has if it executes all of it's abilities in correct fashion."

Basically potency =/= DPS and I'm not even sure showing that you can go math whiz with excel and calculate that number gets you in the argument here. There's not a lot of people out there who are interested in knowing their DPS for a fight who are going to go into the game, smack a dummy around for awhile, read the log and find the numbers (minus dots), pop all that into excel, find that number and then somehow apply that to a fight they're interested in improving on. Not me anyways. Taking calculus was enough. When I want to know my numbers for a fight I'd rather just run a program to tell me a number that actually has a value that means something in the scope of an encounter.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Because I'm using it to make calculations, I'm not having it read through FFXIV's files automatically to scrape and compile data for me. I really don't feel like digging through the ToS to find the exact line that prohibits datamining for you.

Though, again. Parsing programs aren't *technically* outlawed, since the GMs (generally) won't care unless you use the data they give you to harass other players.

Parsers make calculations too. Probably the same ones you have when using Rxcel. Excel isn't different from parsers is the point I'm making here. But using excel over parsers just makes it unnecessary hard and time consuming on whoever decides to use that. By that sense, if you really wanted to, you could harass others using excel. Simply takes longer and more effort.

[JackFross]

Parsers make calculations too. Probably the same ones you have when using Rxcel. Excel isn't different from parsers is the point I'm making here. But using excel over parsers just makes it unnecessary hard and time consuming on whoever decides to use that. By that sense, if you really wanted to, you could harass others using excel. Simply takes longer and more effort.

The same ones? No. I'm calculating optimal stuff and the stuff above was calculating the advantages of a given buff to compare it against an assumption I made. All that a parser would have done for me in that situation is tabulate the data in exactly the same way I see it in the battle log. It would have been the same amount of work either way. Referring to what is essentially a calculator as a third-party program on the same level as something that scrapes data from the game and tabulates it for you is a bit of a stretch, but your point is valid, regardless.

[Viridiana]

//Yeah, those points don't all spit out exactly the same values and the variance isn't 0, but the general trend is linear, regardless. The exact linear correspondence isn't necessarily an easy thing to find, but to openly say "Potencies sometimes aren't linear" and then throw data in my face that is essentially linear feels like you're insulting my intelligence or something.

Show me a linear regression formula that hits all the data points I provided in that first post. Because I haven't been able to find one, even with Excel. And not "within 1%", either. Within rounding error. And of course, the second link I provided has numbers that are 2% off. Oh, and they aren't even consistently off in the same direction, as the first link shows. In fact, they aren't even consistently off. Which has been my point all along: it's impossible to derive a precise damage ratio based only on the potency ratio. Is it off by enough to substantially change things? Probably not? Then again, my NIN numbers show Raiton doing less damage than expected from a 360 potency attack, and Raiton is already on shaky ground to start with, so maybe...