The Real Problem with Parsers

[rappa]

I don't get it. What part of that demanded the use of a parser?

It's called "underperfoming"

[Arkenne]

I doubt you need a parser to tell just how bad that is, tho...

[JackFross]

As for your guide, you mentioned you used "math". I think it's safe to assume you've used a program to help you do that. So how exactly would this be different from parsers? Parsers simply simplify it for this sole reason. It does add one benefit. Namely numbers. Numbers are much easier to grasp for the guide's effectiveness, rather than a "theoretical guide". Without the end result (the numbers), how could you prove your guide's better, if not just as effective, as another guide?

I forgot to address this point. The "program" I used is nothing other than pen-and-paper, automated by just running the calculations in excel rather than doing them by hand. I directly take the potency amounts in-game, use the GCD cooldown I have, and, using these numbers, calculated what would be the optimal rotation between a few different variants I came up with. Dragoon is simple in that it has 2 combos and 2 skills out-of-combo that are halfway useful. (Full Thrust/Chaos Thrust and Heavy Thrust/Phlebotomize, respectfully)

I reasoned out that Fracture is a waste of time and TP, because its potency per gcd is less than every other potential skill you could put in that spot (listed above) - INCLUDING Heavy Thrust, when you add up all those 15%'s that it gives on any of the other GCDs.

None of this required parsing - none even required verification by parsing. Numbers don't lie. Using simply the potency amounts, I also was able to calculate when it would be optimal to use buffs such as Life Surge, simply by mathing it out hard enough. I didn't have to parse using it in each place in a long fight to see. I just extrapolated using "perfect" rotations with "ideal" timings and decided which skills it would be useful to use it on. It was a loss to use it for Chaos Thrust (where it used to be a gain) but a gain to use it on either 4th hit OR Full Thrust, so long as you hit the positionals.

All of this has merit regardless of parsing or not, because I considered all other cases. At least 90% of other cases are thrown out before you even start because 90% of the skills on Dragoon are less potency per gcd than using either of those 4 blocks described above. From there it's just a matter of figuring out how to maximize the use of those 4 blocks. There's only so many permutations that exist when you only have 4 pieces to slide around, especially when 2 out of 4 of those are static damage regardless where you put them.


All of this described above comes with numbers.
Heavy Thrust is 170 potency per gcd, not counting buffs.
Phlebotomize is 170+30x? potency per gcd, not counting buffs.
Chaos Thrust combo is (180+220+250+290+35x?)/4 potency per gcd, not counting buffs.
Full Thrust combo is (150+200+360+290)/4 potency per gcd, not counting buffs.

The ?'s depend on your skill speed and the rotation you end up putting together.

In practice, we can calculate the Full Thrust combo's potency, including our base buffs as Dragoon (Heavy Thrust's +15% damage and Disembowel's 10% Pierce debuff resist drop):

150+200+360+290 = 1000 potency
1000 / 4 = 250 potency per gcd
250 x 1.15 = 287.5 potency per gcd (with Heavy Thrust)
287.5 / 0.9 = 319.44 potency per gcd (with HT+Dis)

That's a number I can compare to the others and see which combo is stronger. I didn't use a parser to get that number at all. All I "automated" was the last two calculations.

When you set up a rotation, it will give you a specific potency per gcd. You can compare these numbers to the numbers produced by other rotations to find out which one is strictly best without doing the fieldwork of testing each one a hundred times and averaging the results to give dps numbers spat out from a parser that estimates dot ticks.

How is it different from a parser? It's calculated using nothing but the numbers the game gives me in tool tips without "automating" anything aside from flat calculations (Though a calculator hardly automates anything). A parser scrapes the data from the game and compiles it, automating everything from data gathering to the calculations of damage amounts. These are two very different methods, though they look similar if you paint in broad strokes.

[Kuroyasha]

People should stop expecting to be bad with no one saying anything b/c "games" "i play how i wanna" "it can't be me" "elitist."

I don't know where this mentality of " everyone deal with my bad performance or you're a bad person" came from. In the end that is just using a different viewpoint to make oneself psychologically feel better.

[Aiselia]

It's called "underperfoming"

It's called "You already saw that he had Mind accessories". You don't need a parser to prove that Mind isn't what a Bard should be using, because it says when you hover over it in your character screen that it affects healing potency. It's just plain fact that Bards should be using Dex, not Mind.

A parser wouldn't have changed anything. It's as easy to prove he's underperforming with and without a parser because he's literally not wearing the right stats.

And this is besides the fact that you're complaining about underperforming in Aurum Vale? Really? That's why this game DOESN'T need parsers. If you're complaining about how poorly someone's parsing in something like Aurum Vale, you're the exact type of person that should not be allowed to parse.

[RiceisNice]

And this is besides the fact that you're complaining about underperforming in Aurum Vale? Really? That's why this game DOESN'T need parsers. If you're complaining about how poorly someone's parsing in something like Aurum Vale, you're the exact type of person that should not be allowed to parse.

He wasn't complaining about how poorly they were parsing nor did he even mention low damage output, but the fact that they were completely off the radar on what they should be doing (having the wrong stats). All that screenshot showed was that he couldn't even voice that because in the end, he wounded up getting vote dismissed.

[Malevicton]

snip

Calculating your optimal potencies shows you your hypothetical ceiling. If you wanna know how well you're actually applying that knowledge then you need to analyze your combat logs.

[Aiselia]

He wasn't complaining about how poorly they were parsing nor did he even mention low damage output

He says that the game needs parsers because someone was wearing Mind accessories on a Bard. When asked what a parser has to do with that, he said "underperforming". The example was taking place in Aurum Vale.

So yes, the complaint is underperforming in Aurum Vale.

Whether he said it in chat is irrelevant, and parsers would have been entirely irrelevant and not solved anything in that situation because if they didn't figure out in 50ish levels that Dex is for Bards and Mind is not useful for Bards, showing them DPS numbers isn't going to do a thing.

Especially if the other DPS isn't a similarly-geared-except-wearing-Dex Bard so that there's something to compare to.

But, I mean, looking at the chat, "Motion for dismissal rejected" coming right before "Facepalm" kind of suggests that the person tried to kick the Bard for wearing Mind accessories, it failed, and they got kicked in return. Maybe that's wrong, but that chat log makes it pretty clear they weren't just innocently, kindly bringing up that Bards should use Dex.

[RiceisNice]

...

You don't need a parser to tell someone is under performing, but you need it to quantify that information and prove that they are infact, under performing. Regardless of if there was a parser there or not, I don't think the outcome would've changed with that party. It's an isolated scenario, but just maybe you know, if the BRD had seen his numbers compared to say...other bards (which was actually the case for that party in the screenshot), then if he had the mind to improve then maybe he'd rethink the use of such accessories, especially when he isn't even using the extra mana. It's a terrible example that really doesn't prove one way or another, because even for something like AV, I'd rather not have to put up with people who either refuse to learn the proper stats for their class or deliberately play poorly.

Also funny enough, he asked what the mind was supposed to, which quite literally, does nothing for bards, not even give mana as they claimed.

[OPneedNerfs]

You don't need a parser to tell someone is under performing, but you need it to quantify that information and prove that they are infact, under performing. Regardless of if there was a parser there or not, I don't think the outcome would've changed with that party. It's an isolated scenario, but just maybe you know, if the BRD had seen his numbers compared to say...other bards (which was actually the case for that party in the screenshot), then if he had the mind to improve then maybe he'd rethink the use of such accessories, especially when he isn't even using the extra mana. It's a terrible example that really doesn't prove one way or another, because even for something like AV, I'd rather not have to put up with people who either refuse to learn the proper stats for their class or deliberately play poorly.

Also funny enough, he asked what the mind was supposed to, which quite literally, does nothing for bards, not even give mana as they claimed.

Well he definitely had the MIND to improve.

I'll see myself out...