The Real Problem with Parsers

[Davester]

The only problem with parsers is that not enough people are using them.

[SerosJourney]

PS4 = no Parser

might be one of the reasons

[JackFross]

They would rather just wipe, wipe and disband. Rarely is the underperforming DPS kicked and replaced.

There's a stark difference between non-content such as dungeons or the normal version of Alexander and going into Savage. In Savage, even with current gear, the DPS need to at least know how to play their class. If they don't, you can - and should - call them on it. Alexander Savage is not designed for the less-hardcore players who "don't try" in things or are simply lolling around having fun. You need to actually play well to clear. That's a situation where you SHOULD mention it. I still tend not to point out the one person specifically, though, I'll mention "the dps is low." And if someone asks, I'll clarify. I can usually tell things like that even without a parser running.

If you hit enrage on Faust, for example, your dps suck. No way around that. I've run it with pugs, pulling 1400 Faust-only with my dragoon and seeing enrage. One good dps can't carry 3 average ones through content where your dps actually matters.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

There's a stark difference between non-content such as dungeons or the normal version of Alexander and going into Savage. In Savage, even with current gear, the DPS need to at least know how to play their class. If they don't, you can - and should - call them on it. Alexander Savage is not designed for the less-hardcore players who "don't try" in things or are simply lolling around having fun. You need to actually play well to clear. That's a situation where you SHOULD mention it. I still tend not to point out the one person specifically, though, I'll mention "the dps is low." And if someone asks, I'll clarify. I can usually tell things like that even without a parser running.

Since you've brought this up:
1) How do you pinpoint where the problem is? You mentioned one good DPS can't carry three. But for certain content, three DPS can't carry even one.
2) How do you plan to prove someone (or two of them) is/are the problem? You mentioned that "you can tell". Exactly how? Enmity bar? The only job out there without an enmity reducer would be monk. Every other DPS job has something that affects enmity. The enmity bar is also rather limited, especially if the main tank's going all in on enmity generation, making other player's enmity bar as large as 5 pixels.*
3) How can other players on DPS roles know they're performing well or not without a parser?
4) If said players are supposed to find a guide to "perform well", what makes that guide credible if no parser is involved during the creation of it?

* Objective answer, "gut feeling" is not a valid answer.

[Animosite]

I don't like to post on here or generally associate with people on here because of well... threads like this, but I was sent this from a friend for the pure amusement and I want to fully understand the mindset of the players that don't want to do their basic rotation or choose to perform badly. I get people say that parsers are bad because people play the way they want to. I WOULD understand that fully if this was a single-player game, but this is a game with people that work as a team. As a team based game you would be dragging others down by your bad performance and the players that your are dragging down will have to make up for your, "I wanna play how I wanna play" mindset. Isn't that harassment? Don't you care about how you are making others work harder because you don't care? I am not saying you need to min/max yourself but to do the basics. Like not having on the wrong accessories, a dragoon with no heavy thrust or just spamming the full thrust combo, a war spamming butcher's block, a whm that thinks cure III is the biggest heal, a blm that never does fire III, not doing your positionals, and you get the idea. This mindset has been pressed upon people to the point that correcting someone is harassment or just being an, "elitist." And all those examples that I have listed are just of a few of what I have experienced. I understand people are new, but I am talking about the people in Alexander that have had this game for months and months and still don't know how to play their class. So why is this accepted? And yes I fully approve of parsers being in the game so people can at least see themselves compared to others.

TL;DR: Why is it okay to perform badly and bad for others to correct you?

[JackFross]

Okay.

Since you've brought this up:
1) How do you pinpoint where the problem is? You mentioned one good DPS can't carry three. But for certain content, three DPS can't carry even one.

If the problem is in DPS, it's readily apparent by the fact you hit enrage.

2) How do you plan to prove someone (or two of them) is/are the problem? You mentioned that "you can tell". Exactly how? Enmity bar? The only job out there without an enmity reducer would be monk. Every other DPS job has something that affects enmity. The enmity bar is also rather limited, especially if the main tank's going all in on enmity generation, making other player's enmity bar as large as 5 pixels.*

You can tell by certain skill animations being seen or not. I raid with MNK/MCH/SMN. I know what I'm supposed to see on Faust with those three, at least. Generally I'll give it one run where I don't bother paying attention to others. If there's a problem, I'll watch. A bad MNK will sit on one side for far too long; they're clearly missing positionals or even skipping buffs entirely. You can see most of their main ones just in the party list (TwS and FoF) and the dots on the boss itself. SMN and SCH are easy to notice, because there should be 2 instances of each debuff up at all times on the boss. If there aren't, one or both aren't doing their job proper. BLM you have to actually watch the party list, so it's a little more difficult; gotta see Enochian not falling off, see them cycling fire then ice, etc. The rotation is complex, but simple. If Enochian drops off against Faust, they're clearly doing things wrong. It's a dummy. Bards are EASY to tell just by enmity list, as are MCH. Both of them SHOULD crap out INSANE enmity on the opener, even with Quelling Strikes activated - it's why they should be using it.

These are all general "feelings" if you will, but the overall point I was making was more about raid dps and less about individual classes. It's really easy to notice if a boss is dying considerably slowly, when I've done the content to death. I know my rotation. If I'm going for too long, I can tell.

3) How can other players on DPS roles know they're performing well or not without a parser?

That's an issue with the game's design, yes. There's no positive feedback loop for performing well with DPS classes. Yeah, as Machinist, you'll see that HUGE hit on Wildfire or Bard will see that big Empyreal Arrow. Hitting 5k crits on Full Thrust as Dragoon feels SO GOOD. But none of that translates ~at all~ to how you're performing. Everyone can make big hits happen. Very few people can have that carry through an encounter.

I think the game should have personal parsers for Striking Dummies. I definitely definitely think so. In instances, though? If it's anything other than a PERSONAL meter to show YOU how YOU performed in the encounter, I disagree with it. Completely. It's nobody else's business how someone else is doing. It's not your job to tell someone they suck, it's their job to seek help to get better.*

4) If said players are supposed to find a guide to "perform well", what makes that guide credible if no parser is involved during the creation of it?

99% of things in most guides to playing classes can be reasoned out and calculated mathematically given the numbers provided by the game. Optimal rotations can be calculated off potency amounts. Simple testing shows us that potencies are essentially percentages. Your auto attack is ~100 potency if you compare it against your other skills and their potencies. Due to this, you can easily assume that potency directly correlates to damage output. If you produce a rotation that spits out maximum potency per gcd, you've similarly discovered a rotation that spits out maximum damage per gcd.

You don't need a parser to do that math. The only time a parser is really employed is when discerning best in slot sets, since stat weights require rigorous testing to discover damage formulae - and even then the parser is just there to make number gathering a bit easier, I feel. You can similarly just record it and add up all the damage ticks, divide by the time and boom done. It's just more time consuming that way.


I personally created this guide for playing Dragoon a while back without employing a parser in any part of it; it's a result of my own trial and error in playing the class, alongside calculations I made like those I described above (and then a few tips pointed out to me by others that I hadn't discovered yet). Would you say my guide isn't credible?



*//EDIT: That is to say: Once a feedback loop exists where players can see their own personal damage/dps scores in an instance, it's possible to then DISCUSS it with other players. Talking to other players of your class to be like "Hey, I did 700 dps in Alex 1 today. How are you doing?" if the person responds with a higher number, the lower number person can either attribute it to gear or them lacking in certain skills. It opens dialogues about the classes and how to play them in-game without use of third-party programs. THAT is a change I would like to see. I would never want to see it where people start laughing at the poor newbie NIN who is struggling to maintain 600 dps in standstill because of the complicated dance that is their rotation. Once they see that they're doing worse than others of the same class, they can seek to improve. Being TOLD they suck isn't gonna help. It'll just make them feel worse. x:

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

snip

Well, that's quite a wall of text. I'll just respond in a more compact form :P

The problem with your arguments on 1, 2 and 3 would be "feeling", which you admitted to it that it's all "personal feeling". I have my doubts whether observing every single player in the DPS seat, looking at their rotation/animation order, doing your own job while watching the field is... feasible. If anything, it's all "paper chemistry". While it's true on paper, it does not (always) apply in practice. Even if it does, it's only true for a very selective individuals who somehow can keep an eye on the animation (order) of 4 players in addition to their own role while also observing and responding to the playing field.

Here's another thing about "personal feeling"; it's not a valid reason to elaborate why someone's performing poorly. You're all for personal parsers, but here's one flaw in it: It doesn't work or make a difference. This leads to two cases:
Case 1 being denial. If no one has access to your numbers, what is preventing you from hiding it?
Case 2 would be drawing conclusions. If your numbers are fine, there's no reason to hide it. If someone would hide it after all, the logical conclusion would be that their numbers are terrible. (let's just go for pure DPS numbers for now, rather than in depth information like skill rotation)
Ergo: Regardless of a parser being public or private, it would hardly make a difference.

There's a possibility of case 3 where multiple players would hide their data. This would actually be the worst as rather than eliminating the weakest link, the entire group is more likely to break apart and unable to achieve the common goal they have gathered for. Even if majority of the group is perfectly capable.

As for your guide, you mentioned you used "math". I think it's safe to assume you've used a program to help you do that. So how exactly would this be different from parsers? Parsers simply simplify it for this sole reason. It does add one benefit. Namely numbers. Numbers are much easier to grasp for the guide's effectiveness, rather than a "theoretical guide". Without the end result (the numbers), how could you prove your guide's better, if not just as effective, as another guide?

There's one particular thing about the whole personal parser or public parser "discussion". This "fear" without base for being alienated because you're doing poorly. But isn't this exactly what parsers should be for? Improving yourself.

[Kuroyasha]

TL;DR: Why is it okay to perform badly and bad for others to correct you?

B/c feelings Animosite...b/c feelings. Someone playing bad we should just take it and carry. We want someone to play good or point out mistakes oh no now we're Lahabrea reincarnated.

[JackFross]

I can definitely see the case for public parsers, with the problems you outlined. I just have seen/witnessed SE's official stance on parsing programs to be that, while they're against the ToS, they don't REALLY police it too tightly unless you start to be a dick about it. When you start excluding people from content because they're doing low dps, you're being a dick - you're using information gleaned from a rule-breaking program to harass another player.

That's not cool.

And that's the primary reason I don't really want to see something like a public parser implemented. It would essentially legalize bullying another member because they're not pulling their weight. Do you honestly think the majority of the playerbase is going to say "Oh, try and do better next time" and explain/help that person learn the fight and improve? I'm fairly sure 90% of people would just drop the dude and pick up someone who already knows the fight and can clear it. People being able to see low DPS numbers in trials would cause so many vote kicks.

[[ Before anyone says "make a learning PF!!!" --- why should these people NOT be allowed to solo-queue in DF for old-as-dirt content and run it without knowing jack shit of how it works? Should they always be required to make a PF with people on their server to clear storyline encounters just so they can reach 60 and play the new stuff? That seems silly to suggest. ]]

Yeah, this is an unbased fear because parsers exist and it hasn't happened, but... if you do that RIGHT NOW, and are reported for harassment, you can get in MAJOR trouble if the person mentions you parsed and kicked them for low performance. :T If a parser is implemented in-game, that rule would be so gray and it just wouldn't breed a very... cohesive/friendly environment. And that's my issue with it.


I see both sides of the argument.

On the one hand, we do need an official way of measuring DPS so players who don't have access to parsing programs can self-evaluate and improve. This is good.

On the other hand, introducing a means of measuring DPS could essentially legalize bullying players who aren't optimal. This is bad.

I'm not sure which side is more important. A friendly, accepting community or a community with higher parity in the playerbase. Personally, I love the friendly atmosphere of the server I play on. It's a more casual place, with a handful of hardcore/elite players (whom I generally enlist to run important content with me). I love playing with the people in my free company, even if they're not out there pushing top DPS numbers and breaking records. It's a video game and it's designed for people to have fun playing it. I really can't agree that it's fair for us to dictate HOW someone should play the game, even if that HOW they are CURRENTLY playing it is "wrong" due to the meta that YOU play by.



Yes, there is one optimal rotation for Dragoon. However, no, that does not mean there is only one way to play Dragoon.

That's basically my whole point I'm making, here, lol.

[Malevicton]

And that's the primary reason I don't really want to see something like a public parser implemented. It would essentially legalize bullying another member because they're not pulling their weight. Do you honestly think the majority of the playerbase is going to say "Oh, try and do better next time" and explain/help that person learn the fight and improve? I'm fairly sure 90% of people would just drop the dude and pick up someone who already knows the fight and can clear it. People being able to see low DPS numbers in trials would cause so many vote kicks.

First of all allowing parsers does not mean allowing harassment. It would absolutely not "legalize bullying" in any way shape or form. I know you late go on to say a parser would make the rules gray... but how so?

Even if it somehow did... The thing is, and sorry that I'm repeating myself a bit here, that this is not a hypothetical fear. Other MMOs have parsers, and this situation does not happen. We don't need to guess or assume what players would do, because these environments have existed now for well over a decade. We can draw on a huge well of experience, and that well of experience says that those situations are extreme outliers. They exist, but they're extremely rare. So no offense, but what you're "fairly sure 90% of people" would suddenly start doing is a bit paranoid. There is no evidence that people would change at all, and in fact there's a decent amount of evidence that that wouldn't be the case.

And really the people that care enough to do that will have already downloaded a parser by now and have already been doing it. The introduction of a parser will not make people suddenly start acting that way. MMO history points to the exact opposite. Most people will continue not caring whatsoever as long as you aren't getting them killed. At worst you might get a few more eyerolls in your direction.

If you're playing around casual players they aren't going to magically become elitist bullies because they looked at a parser. There is absolutely no evidence that that will happen. To be blunt, it's baseless fearmongering to think that the community as a whole will become worse because of a parser.