The Real Problem with Parsers

[Gorlioliolio]

Right, and with personal parsers with optional sharing, you see immediately who wants to hide their DPS so you get a better idea of how receptive they are to criticism. Sounds like a benefit to personal parsers with optional sharing, to me. You get a better idea of whether the person will be willing to listen to criticism or if they'll just ignore what you say anyways.

Which brings me back to my earlier point, why do I want this underperforming person who is unwilling to take constructive criticism in my group in the first place? Should I be forced to accept the person who basically says screw you to 3 other people just because there were only a couple people online at the time in my FC?

And then circles around to the question I have presented you and you have avoided multiple times, at this point who is more selfish? The one person giving the proverbial finger to 3-7 other players or the group that doesn't want to deal with that person, I still don't know how you can stand by your stance of 1 person wasting 3 peoples time is less selfish then 3 people not wanting to deal with that a-hole in the first place, who is the bigger jerk at this point? The 3 people who agree that this person is just wasting their time or the 1 person being a jerk?

Shows lack of desire to improve because they're potentially embarrassed over their numbers. Saves you time trying to help someone get better when they don't want it.

You are fully admitting that these people have no desire to improve, which means that not only are they wasting that particular groups time but the time of numerous groups in the future, again what is more selfish?

[Aiselia]

Which brings me back to my earlier point, why do I want this underperforming person who is unwilling to take constructive criticism in my group in the first place? Should I be forced to accept the person who basically says screw you to 3 other people just because there were only a couple people online at the time in my FC?

Are you still able to complete the run? Then yeah, accept it. You decided to pick up random people.

Are you unable to possibly complete it because of them? Well, I already said I'm not against kicking people who make it literally impossible to clear.

[Malevicton]

idk man, some people think that not making it literally impossible is a bit of a low standard. That's fine for you to follow in your groups, but I don't think it's fair to apply that to everyone.

Heck in a dungeon both dps can literally afk the entire thing and it's still possible to clear. It'll just take a while.

[Gorlioliolio]

I am able to complete the run if both dps go afk at the start of the dungeon and the healer is good, should I also not kick the dps in that situation?

This has been stated multiple times before but 1 more time just for fun.

No one is advocating booting someone for performing under the potential, only for performing so badly that it severely hinders the group.

Like I stated before, if the tank cannot for the life of them hold agro, for some reason refuse to use tank stance and are doing practically nothing but are still running in and just spamming the 1 key, do you kick him? What if the dps/heals are so overgeared you can still clear but it might just take a while?

This could turn into a 30-40 minute run, but it's still doable, you offer the tank advice and they ignore you, what reason do the 2 dps and healer have for putting up with this crap?

Edit: you know he is going to just come back and say afk is on the list to boot, but guess what being a piss poor player because screw everyone else I'm a shiny snowflake and can do whatever I want in a dungeon is a form of harassment which is also on the boot list

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Right, and with personal parsers with optional sharing, you see immediately who wants to hide their DPS so you get a better idea of how receptive they are to criticism. Sounds like a benefit to personal parsers with optional sharing, to me. You get a better idea of whether the person will be willing to listen to criticism or if they'll just ignore what you say anyways.

This exactly would create the kind of jerk you're so "anti-jerk" about, though? You'd get two responses when they'd see someone hiding it: Don't do anything or Kicking from the party. This would be true for public parsers too: Players can choose not to do anything or kick from the party. So what added value does it have aside from creating the same kind of toxicity you mentioned in another post?

I have, at points, said that making a run take longer and outright making it impossible are different situations. I am against kicking people just for making a run take a bit longer. I'm not against kicking people making it impossible to complete it. And that applies to both DPS and other mechanics, and all three roles, tank, healer, and DPS.

I don't believe I've discussed with you about specific uses of parsers for that kind of scenario with you. I've pointed out objective gains from it, with the possible problems and solution for the problem - Which does depend on the player in question. But this is also another case of "catering to jerks". If a particular kind of player abuses the parser for needs like that, why would the community need to cater for it and not get a tool for the better end of the spectrum?

If you all know that the one person's poor DPS is causing problems, then what good does knowing their exact numbers serve?

Because you wouldn't know till you see those numbers. In case of personal parsers: What if every DPS is hiding theirs? Or what if two are hiding theirs? Do you kick whoever's not sharing? Or do you simply leave and avoid the problem altogether? If three out of 4 DPS shares their number, then why would there be a need to hide it if others can conclude you're the dead weight of the party while the other 3 are doing well? Ergo: Private parsing doesn't solve anything.

What's stopping them from asking how to share it?

What's stopping people from kicking them before asking? The contrary also applies here. (anti-jerk, remember)

Also, I notice that people skim over the PS3 limitations thing. What's your opinion on what needs to be removed for parsers if they couldn't even add in a TP bar without removing the party bonus to another window?

I have no idea how Square-Enix codes things, but from what I'm guessing about their logic about the TP bar:
They're sending a lot of data in a single object to each user every set amount of time per second (or once per second? No idea). While the user client can calculate the TP based on the actions players do, it wouldn't make sense for TP to be calculated locally, rather than being retrieved. Or at least, I wouldn't program it myself where you send 99% of related data through one object and let the remaining 1% be calculated locally.

However, for parsing it's different. Damage is already sent to the user through a package. With all the damage present locally, it would actually make sense to calculate damage locally. Unless they'd send more numbers from the server to each user, which is actually already present in raw format. But sending data twice wouldn't make sense either. (as mentioned previously)

In a nutshell: Nothing has to be removed as damage can be calculated locally. This wouldn't strain the server with anything as the present data is already being sent to the user. Whoever mods (or hacks) their parser to fabricate anything wouldn't cause any problems. After all, you're using the same parser, if their numbers are off while the entire group coincides, you'll know what's going on.

Edit:
My previous edit didn't include the ps3 part for some reason.

Anyways, as for the PS3, CPU and GPU are two different things. I'm pretty sure the GPU doesn't handle the damage calculations. If anything, the only strain on the GPU would be a couple of numbers it needs to display on the screen. As for the calculating part; I have no idea how much FF14 consumes the CPU of a PS3. So... no idea. #pcmasterrace

[Aiselia]

idk man, some people think that not making it literally impossible is a bit of a low standard. That's fine for you to follow in your groups, but I don't think it's fair to apply that to everyone.

Some people think that taking a half hour in a dungeon is intolerable. That's fine for them to follow in their premade groups, but I don't think it's fair to apply that to everyone.

Heck in a dungeon both dps can literally afk the entire thing and it's still possible to clear. It'll just take a while.

And AFK is in the list of kick reasons.

I am able to complete the run if both dps go afk at the start of the dungeon and the healer is good, should I also not kick the dps in that situation?

And AFK is in the list of kick reasons.

Like I stated before, if the tank cannot for the life of them hold agro, for some reason refuse to use tank stance and are doing practically nothing but are still running in and just spamming the 1 key, do you kick him?

I seem to recall having already covered this.

This exactly would create the kind of jerk you're so "anti-jerk" about, though?

Removing someone from a run for making it impossible to clear isn't the same kind of thing I'm anti-jerk about.

I don't believe I've discussed with you about specific uses of parsers for that kind of scenario with you.

Probably not. But you seem to be fine with going through my older posts anyways, so I assumed you'd have come across it.

why would the community need to cater for it and not get a tool for the better end of the spectrum?

The question really is why open the door when there's an acceptable way around opening it?

What if every DPS is hiding theirs? Or what if two are hiding theirs? Do you kick whoever's not sharing?

Look at threat meter to compare the people who are sharing to those who aren't.
If nobody's willing to share at all, vote abandon. If they're not willing to help solve the problem, then being able to default see their numbers won't solve it either.

If three out of 4 DPS shares their number, then why would there be a need to hide it if others can conclude you're the dead weight of the party while the other 3 are doing well?

Embarrassment, fear of harassment.

What's stopping people from kicking them before asking?

Nothing. With party parsers, what's stopping people from kicking without offering help?

I have no idea how Square-Enix codes things, but from what I'm guessing about their logic about the TP bar:
They're sending a lot of data in a single object to each user every set amount of time per second (or once per second? No idea). While the user client can calculate the TP based on the actions players do, it wouldn't make sense for TP to be calculated locally, rather than being retrieved. Or at least, I wouldn't program it myself where you send 99% of related data through one object and send the remaining 1% through another.

Which confuses me because there wasn't any need to remove the party bonus in that case (if the removal was related to the TP bars, maybe just a coincidence) because the party bonus wouldn't be updated at all throughout a run short of people being kicked/leaving and replaced.

If they're not related, then whatever, maybe they just decided that party bonus wasn't really important enough to be seen (true, but besides the point).
If they are related, that suggests actual display/UI real estate issues, rather than necessarily having to do with what data is actually being sent when.

If the latter is the issue, a party-wide visible parse during combat would be a bigger issue than a personal one.

Whoever mods (or hacks) their parser to fabricate anything wouldn't cause any problems.

If someone's going to the difficulty to mod their client to lie about a parse, you'd think they'd go through the difficulty to learn to play.

[Malevicton]

Some people think that taking a half hour in a dungeon is intolerable. That's fine for them to follow in their premade groups, but I don't think it's fair to apply that to everyone.

If only there were a middle ground, eh?

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Some people think that taking a half hour in a dungeon is intolerable.

I saw one person mentioning that back at page 36, 37 or 38. Why are the rest of us clumped together again?

[Gorlioliolio]

And AFK is in the list of kick reasons.

So is harassment, and walking into a dungeon and purposefully making it slow by only auto-attacking or just spamming your 1 key over and over is a form of that.

Like I stated before, if the tank cannot for the life of them hold agro, for some reason refuse to use tank stance and are doing practically nothing but are still running in and just spamming the 1 key, do you kick him?

I seem to recall having already covered this.

One time was in the form of an afk tank, the other you responded with saying no one is advocating not kicking a dps for using auto attack but for instead kicking them for doing what they think is right while it may not be up to your standards.

What if that's what the tank thinks is right, what if he got to 60 fate grinding, somehow miraculously got through all the story dungeons and is still doing this crap.

I have carried multiple tanks through things when I just want to see how good I am, and kicked them sometimes as well when I'm not in the mood for it as I'm sure other people have.

[Aiselia]

I saw one person mentioning that back at page 36, 37 or 38. Why are the rest of us clumped together again?

I didn't mention the rest of you. I said some people. If you're not one of those people, I didn't say anything about you.

When you see me say "everyone", then you can accuse me of clumping people together.

So is harassment, and walking into a dungeon and purposefully making it slow by only auto-attacking or just spamming your 1 key over and over is a form of that.

Yep, and I believe I already went over that I'm not including people who just go in and auto-attack or only spam one attack in who shouldn't be kicked. Something about potentially being AFK during fights or botting, I believe, both of which are reasons.

What if that's what the tank thinks is right, what if he got to 60 fate grinding, somehow miraculously got through all the story dungeons and is still doing this crap.

Then you can try to help him and if he doesn't listen, do whatever. Tanks and DPS are different situations, after all.