The Real Problem with Parsers

[Whiteroom]

Actually, it is, if you're not trying to argue semantics.

I didn't make the claim. I followed a claim other people made. I already said I don't have official sources.

I didn't say they had to disprove it. I said that what he posted doesn't prove it wrong just because it doesn't mention it.

I'm not clutching at anything. I already said that what their stance is is irrelevant to my own position so I don't really care.

If their stance is irrelevant, why use it in the first place. Or is it only relevant if it supports your argument?

So, about the whole jerks thing, there is almost nothing that can be implimented in game that cant be used by jerks in an abusive fashion. Emotes, vote kick/dismiss, not being able to kick during loot rolls/battle, etc. And guess what, all that can be abused in the opposite way if not implimented, same with parsers.

So, given that almost anything put in the game can be abused, should they stop adding things? Also does the parser actually create jerks? Or are the people already jerks, abusing something in game. If you can write a program that actually changes people into jerks from nice people, that is a powerful program.

[Whiteroom]

Not to take a side in this argument as I don't care all that much whether parsers become sanctioned or not... but you can tell the difference between law and partially eso/alex geared players pretty easily even without a parser so I don't see how you would need a parser to notice someone using an i110 weapon in lvl 60 expert content was doing less dps than your average player.

I realize this, but it was an example an actual event that parsers provided positive information and resulted in a player learning important information about the game. It is an extreme example, but it shows its point (it shows one player being a jerk and intentionally underperforming with missinformation, while the.person using the parser is not a jerk about it, and shows positive results). I'm sure I would have picked up on it at some point, despite how tired I was.

[Aiselia]

If their stance is irrelevant, why use it in the first place. Or is it only relevant if it supports your argument?

Because they were two different arguments. One argument was from the perceived SE position, and one is from my own. Whatever SE thinks about parsers doesn't change the fact that I agree they're useful. You're spending an awfully long time fighting with someone who wants them in the game too (provided people don't abuse them). In fact, if SE really doesn't hold the fear that jerks will use it to be jerkier, that's better for me.

So, given that almost anything put in the game can be abused, should they stop adding things?

Not surprisingly, this has already been covered ad nauseam.

Nobody won victories for being able to carry a gun by saying "Well, I could just stab someone with my pen, so what are you going to do, ban pens?" Nobody won victories for drug legalization by saying "Well, I could just overdose on Tylenol, what are you going to do, ban Tylenol?" So why do people think that they'll win victories for parsers by saying "Well, I could just harass someone for wearing purple clothes, are you going to ban purple dyes?"

Also does the parser actually create jerks? Or are the people already jerks, abusing something in game.

Depends on the person.

If you can write a program that actually changes people into jerks from nice people, that is a powerful program.

Most people call them "internet browsers".

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Well, here's one thing that's a problem, Aiselia.

You're saying you're pro-parser, but most of your posts involves how it shouldn't be in the game. Don't you believe that's even the slightest contradictionary?

[Whiteroom]

Because they were two different arguments. One argument was from the perceived SE position, and one is from my own. Whatever SE thinks about parsers doesn't change the fact that I agree they're useful. You're spending an awfully long time fighting with someone who wants them in the game too (provided people don't abuse them). In fact, if SE really doesn't hold the fear that jerks will use it to be jerkier, that's better for me.

Not surprisingly, this has already been covered ad nauseam.


Depends on the person.

Most people call them "internet browsers".

Actually it does matter. And that was a very poor example you provided. Your whole stance is that it will be abused by jerks. While almost every everything in game is abused. Compairing guns to pens as killing instraments is not the same at all as someone being a jerk over parser numbers vs using emotes to simulate molesting other players vs not rolling on loot in 24 man content so you can afk the run.

So if your criteria for adding a feature is only if it "doesn't create jerks" (still annoyingly vague, so, I'm gonna go with "is it likely to be abused") then you probably can't add very much to the game.

[Aiselia]

Well, here's one thing that's a problem, Aiselia.

You're saying you're pro-parser, but most of your posts involves how it shouldn't be in the game. Don't you believe that's even the slightest contradictionary?

I'm pro-parser. I'm anti-jerk.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be in the game, period. I'm saying they shouldn't be in the game if people aren't mature enough to handle them.

So no, it's not contradictory if you consider my entire stance rather than condensing it into the black and white "pro-" and "anti-" crowd.

Your whole stance is that it will be abused by jerks.

You should stop trying to tell me what my stance is. At no time have you ever come close to being accurate as to what my stance is.

And hey, unsurprisingly, I went over THIS too, with a several-post back and forth about scale of effect being important, as well as expectations from the contrary. Sure, not being able to kick during loot rolls could be abused by people wanting to AFK. But being able to kick during loot rolls can be abused by people who don't want to risk someone else winning "their" loot. So which is expected to be the bigger problem? The one where someone who was helping with a fight gets cheated out of a reward, or the one where someone who isn't helping with fights get carried? But let's face it, if you're still getting through the fights without that person that's AFKing, you don't need them, and if you're not, well, kick them after the wipe, because the loot will have likely run out of time by then.

[CGMidlander]

I'm pro-parser. I'm anti-jerk.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be in the game, period. I'm saying they shouldn't be in the game if people aren't mature enough to handle them.

Lmao
Do you even internet?

[Malevicton]

Well, here's one thing that's a problem, Aiselia.

You're saying you're pro-parser, but most of your posts involves how it shouldn't be in the game. Don't you believe that's even the slightest contradictionary?

no y'see, he's just saying that it shouldn't be implemented in a way that's bad. Which is totally not vague. And while there's no dev quote supporting anything he's said, they still might support it if asked; we can't prove that they wouldn't.

Oh and he's taking the wild position of being a jerk is a bad thing. Except that's not really his stance, he never explicitly said that, go find in his posts where he said that, he's explained his stance so many times we just don't get it, STOP MISCHARACTERIZING HIS NON-VAGUE ARGUMENTS.

[Whiteroom]

I'm pro-parser. I'm anti-jerk.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be in the game, period. I'm saying they shouldn't be in the game if people aren't mature enough to handle them.

So no, it's not contradictory if you consider my entire stance rather than condensing it into the black and white "pro-" and "anti-"

Which given the number of players in game, is a fairly black and white comment in itself... everything will cause greifing in the game, you just have to weigh what is an acceptable amount compared the the benefits the addition brings. The whole thing holding up anyone from taking your point too seriously is that you refuse to give even a vague indication of what that acceptable amount is.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Well, let's start with the history of statements you made that caught my eye up till now.

A simulation you wrote according to you:

Side A: WE NEED PARSERS SO WE CAN KICK PEOPLE FOR BEING BAD AND WASTING FIVE MORE MINUTES OF MY TIME
Side B: But that's exactly the kind of treatment SE wants to avoid
Side A: THEY SHOULD GET OVER IT GIVE US PARSERS SO WE CAN KICK PEOPLE FOR BEING BAD
Side B: But you're just proving SE right by saying that
Side A: I DON'T CARE BECAUSE IT DOESN'T AFFECT ME IN ANY NEGATIVE WAY AND ANYONE IT DOES IS WEAK GIMME PARSERS
Side B: But -
Side A: PARSERS DON'T MAKE PEOPLE JERKS, JERKS MAKE PEOPLE JERKS WE WILL NOT BE JERKS
Side B: But you're already acting like -
Side A: SEE? PEOPLE ARE JERKS ALREADY GIVE PARSERS
Side B: But that's the kind of people that shouldn't get -
Side A: LOL UR JUST SCARED UR DPS IS CRAP SO U WILL BE KICKED YOU TERRIBAD
Side B: I'm a tank.

Meanwhile in another post:

you seem to believe would become rampant.

I never said that.

I do believe your response to StouterTaru there contradicts with what you mentioned before. Unless, of course, you're insisting that really is what Square-Enix is thinking. But you've also stepped away from this standpoint or any statements being valid concerning Square-Enix.

While on the topic of Square Enix:

I'm not. I'm stating SE's viewpoint and why the current arguments don't do anything to defeat that viewpoint, but rather the opposite. The more people who make personal attacks while talking about parsers and say they need them to kick people who might waste 10 minutes of their precious time, the more reason SE has to expect the community can't handle them.

And if SE doesn't want to put in parsers because of that fear, seeing even one person say things like that makes it that much harder to justify adding parsers.

In particular this gem:

People like me? You mean people like me who want a personal parser so people can improve but don't see how the subjective benefits of a party parser objectively outweigh what SE expects will happen?

I don't have to claim that. The pro-parser side already proves it by saying that they'd totally take people to task over low DPS even in content that doesn't have DPS checks at all. Regardless, that's not my claim. That's SE's fear. It's irrelevant if I make that claim because you still have to prove SE wrong. If I stayed out of this thread completely? Yeah, SE would still think the same thing.

Who says it's unneeded? Remember, SE already has the stance that they don't want people to turn into mouthy jerks if they let them talk about others' DPS. If you want to try to help get parsers, you've got to somehow convince them that they're wrong. Which means dispute is absolutely needed. I'd also put forward that it's a litmus test for their own fears. If people can't even handle talking ABOUT parsers without resorting to personal attacks, why should SE expect that they can handle USING parsers without personal attacks?

Coming from people who completely admit that they'll be the people that SE doesn't want?

Which a personal parser can completely do, which I've already said repeatedly I'm absolutely fine with and is a great middle ground for SE because it lets people see their DPS to improve but prevents people from seeing others' DPS to be the elitists SE doesn't want them to be.

Prove it. SE thinks that the number is high enough to warrant not allowing it, so they're the ones you have to convince. Prove it.

Finally:

I'm not clutching at anything. I already said that what their stance is is irrelevant to my own position so I don't really care.

So with all the Square-Enix statements stripped away, that leaves us with your latest post:

I'm pro-parser. I'm anti-jerk.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be in the game, period. I'm saying they shouldn't be in the game if people aren't mature enough to handle them.

So no, it's not contradictory if you consider my entire stance rather than condensing it into the black and white "pro-" and "anti-" crowd

Exactly who are you to judge whether the community is mature enough? You're currently stuck in the limbo of wishes and fearful. If you really are pro-parser as you say, why are you so afraid of it being implemented? If the community isn't going to be a jerk to you about it, why would it bother you? Because this applies not only to you, but for a good chunk of the player base. There are to extreme ends; People who play terrible and those who achieve the maximum possible. But would either be immature according to you? If so, do elaborate in an objective manner.

The common argument (as by previous posts in this topic) would be "I play like I want" or "I'm paying for this game". This applies for others too; if you're choosing how to play, others choose who to play with. Regardless of the parser being present or absent, this will always be the case. So this brings me back to the first post I made in this topic:

You can't blame the tool for a player's behaviour. That's on the same level as blaming a bicycle while cyclists are ignoring traffic rules.

I haven't bothered reading through 38 pages worth of yes-no-yes-no arguments, so I'll drop my 2 cents here: Stop looking at a possible witch hunt that may or may not be initiated by a selective group of people - Hooligans among football fans or literal medieval witch hunting. A parser tool could be useful for those who want to improve their damage output and get out of the so called "scrub zone". If such tools did not exist, no one would have created these "optimal DPS rotation guides" that's all over the place. Prime example being the dragoon topic here. Sure, you can create a rotation based on just theory, but this would create questions as why the rotation in question is "the best" and people start pulling out their spreadsheet programs based on average numbers they put out they see on screen. You could say they're manually "parsing". Such tools would just make it easier and help those improve for those who want to improve. Not only that, if said tools are presented on a silver platter, it may even motivate players to improve more. It takes far less effort and time than using spreadsheets, after all. For those who do not want to improve should not be surprised if they can't beat current- or last patch content till gear makes it completely obsolete. Nor should they be surprised if they get kicked out from parties for being the main cause for failing DPS checks for certain encounters. Which can be argued with what the OP started with what can be roughly translated into "I play like how I want to play". Such comments are double edged. If you choose how you want to play, then the same applies to others and who they decide to play with.

On that note: Damn cyclists are still ignoring traffic rules