The Real Problem with Parsers

[Whiteroom]

I'm pro-parser. I'm anti-jerk.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be in the game, period. I'm saying they shouldn't be in the game if people aren't mature enough to handle them.

So no, it's not contradictory if you consider my entire stance rather than condensing it into the black and white "pro-" and "anti-"

Which given the number of players in game, is a fairly black and white comment in itself... everything will cause greifing in the game, you just have to weigh what is an acceptable amount compared the the benefits the addition brings. The whole thing holding up anyone from taking your point too seriously is that you refuse to give even a vague indication of what that acceptable amount is.

[Aiselia]

The whole thing holding up anyone from taking your point too seriously is that you refuse to give even a vague indication of what that acceptable amount is.

No, I'm pretty sure the whole thing holding up anyone from taking my point too seriously is that they refuse to actually read what my points are, and then lump me in with their perceived notion of the anti-parser crowd. What I think is an acceptable amount of harassment is irrelevant because that amount is subjective.

But if you insist, it's zero. No amount of harassment is or should be acceptable. If you just accept it happening because "people can be jerks", you're part of the problem.

First they came for the low DPS, and I did not speak out because I did not have low DPS.
Then they came for the sub-optimally geared, and I did not speak out, because I used BiS.
Then they came for the non-potion-drinkers, and I did not speak out, because I used HQ Draconians.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.

However, since I've already stated (repeatedly) that personal parsers give all the objective benefits of a party parser while still avoiding people being able to harass others over their DPS because they still shouldn't be able to see it as well as sidestepping potential objective detriments that a party-parser would bring (PS3 limits, for example), and still nobody has managed to state an objective benefit of having a party parser over a personal parser, what I think is or isn't acceptable is irrelevant, because I don't support having party parsers as much as I support having personal parsers with optional sharing.

Exactly who are you to judge whether the community is mature enough?

I'm someone who can read this thread and notices the people who aren't even acting mature in discussions ABOUT parsers, not even USING them. It's hard to consider the community to be mature enough when people start insulting others over their low DPS without even having grouped with them.

If the community isn't going to be a jerk to you about it, why would it bother you?

Because I'm not egocentric enough to think that because something won't affect me, it's okay to ignore it, I guess.

[Malevicton]

First they came for the low DPS, and I did not speak out because I did not have low DPS.
Then they came for the sub-optimally geared, and I did not speak out, because I used BiS.
Then they came for the non-potion-drinkers, and I did not speak out, because I used HQ Draconians.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.

Did you seriously just do this? C'mon dude...

Anyways, I'll give an actual comment towards personal parsers since that's not a bad point, and is commonly brought up. While I'd appreciate them in the abstract, it's just no longer practical. I'd be 100% on board if they had been available at launch, but if people really want to see your numbers, they can see them. Hiding your dps is just no longer an option. While it might have been a good option, it's just no do-able anymore.

[Aiselia]

I'd be 100% on board if they had been available at launch, but if people really want to see your numbers, they can see them. Hiding your dps is just no longer an option. While it might have been a good option, it's just no do-able anymore.

However, a personal parser allows for one to be able to see their own output but allows SE to maintain their (actual) current stance that they know people use them but shouldn't bring them up.

But you're right. Hiding your DPS isn't an option if someone already has a parser.

So then, why are party parsers needed? A personal parser gives you information about yourself and presumably will use less resources than a full party one, making it easier to fit in for PS3 players. What more relevant information will a party parser give you that a personal one won't?

Or are you going to argue like you have countless times before that a perfectly good analogy has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

No, I'm going to argue like I have countless times that scale of potential abuse is important. The objective benefits of making a premade outweigh the detriments.

Other people can't help you if they can't tell what you are doing wrong, and some people are unwilling to help themselves.

Continue to the end of what you quoted where I mentioned optional sharing. This can either be done through my idea of having a share button that shares the parse of the last fight (because presumably you'd bring it up after a wipe or when you notice things dying slowly) to a single person or the party depending on your choice, or what someone else brought up of having options of whether you make it public, private, or just plain off.

So, again, what objective benefits are there to a party parser over a personal one with optional sharing?

[Malevicton]

However, a personal parser allows for one to be able to see their own output but allows SE to maintain their (actual) current stance that they know people use them but shouldn't bring them up.

But their position is that people shouldn't be bringing them up because it's 3rd party software, not because bringing up dps is just inherently bad. Harassing people would still be against ToS.

But you're right. Hiding your DPS isn't an option if someone already has a parser.

So then, why are party parsers needed? A personal parser gives you information about yourself and presumably will use less resources than a full party one, making it easier to fit in for PS3 players. What more relevant information will a party parser give you that a personal one won't?

This game's mechanics require coordination. Like it or not, when you're doing group content you aren't really 4/8 individuals who happen to be in the same place. You're 1 group that's comprised of 4/8 pieces, which is an important distinction. There are many times where it's helpful to know what you're group is up to.

No, I'm going to argue like I have countless times that scale of potential abuse is important. The objective benefits of making a premade outweigh the detriments.

As myself and others have said, we don't really need to guess. Parsers have been a thing in many MMOs. Their abuse is pretty rare.

[Gorlioliolio]

So, again, what objective benefits are there to a party parser over a personal one with optional sharing?

Other people can't help you if they can't tell what you are doing wrong, and some people are unwilling to help themselves.

Oh hey look I quoted myself on that one, the people who are unwilling to help themselves are the ones who turn off their parses. If you are that bad (unless terribly undergeared, which no one should really punish someone for as we have all been there) then I don't want you in my group because you are wasting 4 peoples time (once again your wasting your own time too)

If somebody refuses to share, it suggests that they recognize that they may have issues but will refuse to take your help into consideration because they won't help you help them. That saves you time talking to a wall. And, I mean, if three out of four DPS share and they're all fine, and the fourth refuses to share, it's a pretty safe bet where the problem lies. If they're capable of recognizing that they're underperforming and that they're embarrassed to share because of that, then a stranger telling them they're bad isn't going to do anything more helpful.

I'm unsure if you are going against your own stance here where you seem to be vehemently against kicking people for poor dps. Or are you just saying the group should vote abandon at that point and waste 8 peoples time instead of kicking the 1 person?

Basically if we all know the one persons poor dps is causing problems then what good does being able to hide your dps serve?

[Aiselia]

the people who are unwilling to help themselves are the ones who turn off their parses.

Right, and with personal parsers with optional sharing, you see immediately who wants to hide their DPS so you get a better idea of how receptive they are to criticism. Sounds like a benefit to personal parsers with optional sharing, to me. You get a better idea of whether the person will be willing to listen to criticism or if they'll just ignore what you say anyways.

I'm unsure if you are going against your own stance here where you seem to be vehemently against kicking people for poor dps. Or are you just saying the group should vote abandon at that point and waste 8 peoples time instead of kicking the 1 person?

I have, at points, said that making a run take longer and outright making it impossible are different situations. I am against kicking people just for making a run take a bit longer. I'm not against kicking people making it impossible to complete it. And that applies to both DPS and other mechanics, and all three roles, tank, healer, and DPS.

if we all know the one persons poor dps is causing problems then what good does being able to hide your dps serve?

If you all know that the one person's poor DPS is causing problems, then what good does knowing their exact numbers serve?

So what is the added value of having optional sharing or hiding feature?

For runs where their DPS doesn't matter to anything but taking a few minutes longer, it's not particularly pressing to know their DPS.

They could simply not be aware of such feature and get kicked because the party thinks he/she's hiding something.

What's stopping them from asking how to share it?

Hiding your data when requested

Shows lack of desire to improve because they're potentially embarrassed over their numbers. Saves you time trying to help someone get better when they don't want it.

Fabricating your data

Optional. Sharing. Why would anybody ask for people to just state their numbers if sharing is built in to the parser?

Also, I notice that people skim over the PS3 limitations thing. What's your opinion on what needs to be removed for parsers if they couldn't even add in a TP bar without removing the party bonus to another window?

[Gorlioliolio]

Right, and with personal parsers with optional sharing, you see immediately who wants to hide their DPS so you get a better idea of how receptive they are to criticism. Sounds like a benefit to personal parsers with optional sharing, to me. You get a better idea of whether the person will be willing to listen to criticism or if they'll just ignore what you say anyways.

Which brings me back to my earlier point, why do I want this underperforming person who is unwilling to take constructive criticism in my group in the first place? Should I be forced to accept the person who basically says screw you to 3 other people just because there were only a couple people online at the time in my FC?

And then circles around to the question I have presented you and you have avoided multiple times, at this point who is more selfish? The one person giving the proverbial finger to 3-7 other players or the group that doesn't want to deal with that person, I still don't know how you can stand by your stance of 1 person wasting 3 peoples time is less selfish then 3 people not wanting to deal with that a-hole in the first place, who is the bigger jerk at this point? The 3 people who agree that this person is just wasting their time or the 1 person being a jerk?

Shows lack of desire to improve because they're potentially embarrassed over their numbers. Saves you time trying to help someone get better when they don't want it.

You are fully admitting that these people have no desire to improve, which means that not only are they wasting that particular groups time but the time of numerous groups in the future, again what is more selfish?

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Right, and with personal parsers with optional sharing, you see immediately who wants to hide their DPS so you get a better idea of how receptive they are to criticism. Sounds like a benefit to personal parsers with optional sharing, to me. You get a better idea of whether the person will be willing to listen to criticism or if they'll just ignore what you say anyways.

This exactly would create the kind of jerk you're so "anti-jerk" about, though? You'd get two responses when they'd see someone hiding it: Don't do anything or Kicking from the party. This would be true for public parsers too: Players can choose not to do anything or kick from the party. So what added value does it have aside from creating the same kind of toxicity you mentioned in another post?

I have, at points, said that making a run take longer and outright making it impossible are different situations. I am against kicking people just for making a run take a bit longer. I'm not against kicking people making it impossible to complete it. And that applies to both DPS and other mechanics, and all three roles, tank, healer, and DPS.

I don't believe I've discussed with you about specific uses of parsers for that kind of scenario with you. I've pointed out objective gains from it, with the possible problems and solution for the problem - Which does depend on the player in question. But this is also another case of "catering to jerks". If a particular kind of player abuses the parser for needs like that, why would the community need to cater for it and not get a tool for the better end of the spectrum?

If you all know that the one person's poor DPS is causing problems, then what good does knowing their exact numbers serve?

Because you wouldn't know till you see those numbers. In case of personal parsers: What if every DPS is hiding theirs? Or what if two are hiding theirs? Do you kick whoever's not sharing? Or do you simply leave and avoid the problem altogether? If three out of 4 DPS shares their number, then why would there be a need to hide it if others can conclude you're the dead weight of the party while the other 3 are doing well? Ergo: Private parsing doesn't solve anything.

What's stopping them from asking how to share it?

What's stopping people from kicking them before asking? The contrary also applies here. (anti-jerk, remember)

Also, I notice that people skim over the PS3 limitations thing. What's your opinion on what needs to be removed for parsers if they couldn't even add in a TP bar without removing the party bonus to another window?

I have no idea how Square-Enix codes things, but from what I'm guessing about their logic about the TP bar:
They're sending a lot of data in a single object to each user every set amount of time per second (or once per second? No idea). While the user client can calculate the TP based on the actions players do, it wouldn't make sense for TP to be calculated locally, rather than being retrieved. Or at least, I wouldn't program it myself where you send 99% of related data through one object and let the remaining 1% be calculated locally.

However, for parsing it's different. Damage is already sent to the user through a package. With all the damage present locally, it would actually make sense to calculate damage locally. Unless they'd send more numbers from the server to each user, which is actually already present in raw format. But sending data twice wouldn't make sense either. (as mentioned previously)

In a nutshell: Nothing has to be removed as damage can be calculated locally. This wouldn't strain the server with anything as the present data is already being sent to the user. Whoever mods (or hacks) their parser to fabricate anything wouldn't cause any problems. After all, you're using the same parser, if their numbers are off while the entire group coincides, you'll know what's going on.

Edit:
My previous edit didn't include the ps3 part for some reason.

Anyways, as for the PS3, CPU and GPU are two different things. I'm pretty sure the GPU doesn't handle the damage calculations. If anything, the only strain on the GPU would be a couple of numbers it needs to display on the screen. As for the calculating part; I have no idea how much FF14 consumes the CPU of a PS3. So... no idea. #pcmasterrace

[Gorlioliolio]

If you are pro-parser can you just accept the fact that people will be jerks regardless?

There are people in this game that on purpose make 7/8 or 23/24 man groups just to mess with the 1 person that isn't in their FC. While these people should be suspended or banned or whatever should the developers stop allowing pre-made groups because there is the potential for this kind of abuse? Even though the vast majority of 7/8 pre-mades are just because they couldn't find a last person and said screw it let's just DF someone?

Or are you going to argue like you have countless times before that a perfectly good analogy has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I will pre-emptively show the similarities for you

Devs make tool, small amount of people are a-holes with tool. Devs ban a-holes. Tool helps everyone else.

Replace tool with either parsers or DF you get the same result.

state an objective benefit of having a party parser over a personal parser

Other people can't help you if they can't tell what you are doing wrong, and some people are unwilling to help themselves.