The Real Problem with Parsers

[StouterTaru]

I have. I don't count how many times I've seen people kicked for different things, though.

Different things are different things, the issue is people being booted from dungeons for low damage while still being able to clear content, which you seem to believe would become rampant. The question again is:

how often have you seen someone kicked from a dungeon that wasn't afk, offline, being a jerk, or blamed for a wipe(s)?

[TitaniaYaerem]

Parsers aren't ruining the game, its the people who could care less what their abilities do or in what order they need to be pressed just to perform a simple basic rotation. Lets say for instance you get a MNK who only uses bootshine, not true strike, or snap punch. I've seen these kinds of people somehow get to level 50. Then you get these said people who don't know what 90% of their abilities do because they can't be bothered to take a sec and read.

THEN these people try and queue into ex primals or attempt HW content. Someone then questions why they are doing what they are doing because they can't even get the basic concept of their job. You're saying that these people who gives zero cares in the world and then expects people to carry them, they aren't ruining the game?

Parsers let people know if someone isn't pulling their weight, shouldn't really matter when it comes to dungeons but when it comes to end game content, everyone needs to pull their weight. If you can't even do the bare minimum then you hold back your raid group's progression. You have 2 choices, see if maybe you can try and improve yourself....or back out of your Savage and give your spot to someone else who will help your raid/friends get to where they want to be.

If SE really wanted to be completely free of parsers, they would completely remove dps checks, enrages, or just remove raiding altogether. If that happens then people don't get challenged, no challenge = boredom = less players = game will die.

I've also played WoW before, everyone and their mother has a parser in that game. I've been in dungeons where you could put your character on auto attack and no one says anything at all. Even in raid finder, you could get like 5-10 people underperforming or afk and no one really complains or mention anything about it. The only time people would say anything is if you kept wiping or you're screwing up mechanics.

Parsers aren't ruining the community, its the players. You'll have bad apples from both the Elitest spectrum and the Casual spectrum. If people can't figure that out from playing on MMOs or just being on the internet in general.....then I just feel bad for them.

[RapBreon]

Look, while I am staunchly pro-parser (I'm pro-data really). For those arguing back-and-forth about people being kicked over low performance, it does happen.

I can guarantee you it does, because I personally have kicked someone for low DPS before. And yes, it was entirely due to the extra data provided by the parser that this person was kicked as I had no understanding of the class and how it played at the time; other than it was doing 200 DPS on A4df the first week it was released. It was close to impossible for us to do it at the time with this person in the group. Ostensibly we may have been able to do it with this person (had we all not been learning the fight), but they were making it way harder than it needed to be.

Whether or not its justified is going to be hotly debated I'm sure (JP DF culturally functions a bit differently from NA), but the parser did play an integral role in the formation of my decision. I've teetered on the edge in other situations as well, such as the last boss of FC.

On a different note; if you guys want to crack down on rampant 'unjustified vote kicking', stop premades from using the DF (being flippant). My personal experiences (in life as well as vidya) has demonstrated that the dickish behaviour is motivated by group dynamics, rather than the odd individual. Unlike parsers, which tend to provide justification, rather than motivation.

[Myon88]

Parsers aren't ruining the game, its the people who could care less what their abilities

You mean couldn't. If they could care less, it means they must care about their abilities a lot (because they could still care less).

If I care 30% out of 100% strongly about an issue, then I could care less, because I still care a little bit - 30% is better than nothing!

If I totally didn't care at all (0%), then I really couldn't care less.

[AriaEnia]

1 more option for votekicking:

Harassment
Cheating
AFK
Offline
Stupid DPS

The last one is not limited to DPS, but also healers who don't dps and tanks who don't wear str accs.

[Tsilyi]

I won't lie, I'm at least a little disappointed when people consider that the reference.

is it because everyone is a stickler for detail and you omitted precisely one "truly?"

i did not expect this thread to be 43 pages when i responded to this...

[Viridiana]

Your quite apparent lack of ability to understand the word selfish is what made me quit reading, you want a strawman argument go back and look at all your posts.

Having spent quite a few pages arguing with Aiselia, I don't recall any strawman arguments (aside from arguably that hyperbole disagreement). And nothing you go on to mention in your post would be a strawman, either.

I like how you slipped in an accusation of strawmanning while strawmanning.

Again, not seeing anywhere where he was strawmanning. Care to explain where he attacked a position that was never advanced? Because I'm not seeing it off-hand...

[Malevicton]

Again, not seeing anywhere where he was strawmanning. Care to explain where he attacked a position that was never advanced? Because I'm not seeing it off-hand...

Practically the whole post? Instead of supporting his own argument he just started pointing out problem's with a something completely unrelated, as though that would support his position. Straw manning doesn't necessarily need to be something that was never said; it can just be something irrelevant to the topic at hand. The topic was how his post was relevant, and his argument was that someone else's was less relevant. That doesn't make his post any more relevant.

It's been his go-to tactic in this thread. Attack other people's positions, then claim he can't be wrong because he never had a position. How many times now has he said something like "lol I never said I was against parsers, show me in my posts where I said that, I just said [goes on to say a bunch of stuff that's obviously against parsers, while carefully avoiding explicitly taking a position]"? Spoiler, it's happened a lot.

more extreme example: A literary theorist claimed earlier today that Pride and Prejudice doesn't have any merit in its use of literary devices, but I think they were just trying to rationalize their personal dislike by making unsupportable claims. So clearly I'm right about parsers, and about strawmanning.

[Viridiana]

Practically the whole post? Instead of supporting his own argument he just started pointing out problem's with a something completely unrelated, as though that would support his position. Straw manning doesn't necessarily need to be something that was never said; it can just be something irrelevant to the topic at hand. The topic was how his post was relevant, and his argument was that someone else's was less relevant. That doesn't make his post any more relevant.

It also doesn't make it a strawman, based on any definition of strawman I've ever seen.

It's been his go-to tactic in this thread. Attack other people's positions, then claim he can't be wrong because he never had a position. How many times now has he said something like "lol I never said I was against parsers, show me in my posts where I said that, I just said [goes on to say a bunch of stuff that's obviously against parsers, while carefully avoiding explicitly taking a position]"? Spoiler, it's happened a lot.

Spoiler, most of those were arguing with me, and he and I agree that parsers would be cool if they didn't come with a side order of jerks. He's only been stating that people being jerks is kinda SE's whole reason not to implement parsers, and some of the people in this thread are going a fair way to showing SE right. >_>

more extreme example: A literary theorist claimed earlier today that Pride and Prejudice doesn't have any merit in its use of literary devices, but I think they were just trying to rationalize their personal dislike by making unsupportable claims. So clearly I'm right about parsers, and about strawmanning.

That's a wonderful example of a non sequitor, but unless you have a decent source categorizing it as a strawman, I don't agree that this is a strawman.

[Aiselia]

you seem to believe would become rampant.

I never said that.

You've been watching this thread for how long and you still think that?

Tip: There's a difference between "become rampant" and "increase".

And don't you dare even suggest that it wouldn't increase because EVERYONE in this thread knows that's a lie. The only question really is how much of an increase.

is it because everyone is a stickler for detail and you omitted precisely one "truly?"

This video has 2, actually. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSLhrIuAZak

then claim he can't be wrong because he never had a position.

Just because:
I've never said that.

In fact, I've stated my position a few times.

In fact, I quoted it a few times in a single post to someone who didn't read it before incorrectly trying to state my position.

Here, I'll help you because you obviously missed it despite the fact that you quoted something from that post (and then try to say I take things out of context...).

people like me who want a personal parser so people can improve but don't see how the subjective benefits of a party parser objectively outweigh what SE expects will happen?

that's not my claim. That's SE's fear. It's irrelevant if I make that claim because you still have to prove SE wrong. If I stayed out of this thread completely? Yeah, SE would still think the same thing.

I have zero problems with personal parsers to be allowed to see one's own output so they can improve if they care, and that that would be a safe middle ground for SE to implement because they can still maintain their current policy of not bringing up others' specific DPS because they shouldn't be able to see someone else's with a personal parser.

I'm completely fine with parsers as long as they don't create extra jerks and that I'm all for a personal parser for people to see their own DPS to improve because that's the safest middle ground for SE to let people get their numbers to see if they have room for improvement without risking extra jerks calling people out on their DPS.

So, I mean, if you ignore the various points where I've actually specifically stated my position then yeah, I've avoided stating my position.

Unfortunately, you'll have to pardon me if people like you choose to ignore that specific statement of my position to assert that I'm putting forward a completely different position and instead of restating it for the 15th time, I just say to go look at my actual posts to find where I've said it.