The Real Problem with Parsers

[Aiselia]

Well that's the most arrogant thing I've read today.

If you choose to take it that way, that's your prerogative. I, however, was asking a serious question.

What part of it deserved a response?

Where he said "These are the stupidest threads ever", suggesting a preformed bias against threads against parsers?
Where he admitted he only got up to 15 pages before "summing it up"?
Where he just made a biased strawman "summary" based on his own self-admitted lack of knowledge of what the thread actually contains because he didn't read it all?

Which of those parts deserved a response? Which of those should I respond to that I shouldn't expect should just be a giant waste of my time because he likely won't bother reading it fairly?

[Malevicton]

So why respond to it at all?

Why not make an actual point instead of just shitting on someone's post?

[Aiselia]

So why respond to it at all?

Why not make an actual point instead of just shitting on someone's post?

Here's a couple better questions.

Why are you getting on my case instead of his for making a biased strawman post in the first place?

Why are you not accusing him of trolling by literally referring to the anti-parser side as "bad player"?

I think this line of questioning is over, don't you? It is for me anyways, as it's getting off topic.

[Gorlioliolio]

You called people who kick an underperforming dps "selfish" for wasting everyones time many many times throughout those first 15 pages. Your quite apparent lack of ability to understand the word selfish is what made me quit reading, you want a strawman argument go back and look at all your posts.

Your first argument being that EVERYONE who has poor dps will be kicked, this has been refuted multiple times by people. Basically the general consensus is that first you try to talk to the player, then you give it a shot anyways, then if they still haven't started putting in effort you kick. Again this is the same as if your tank or healer perform poorly, you try a couple times but if nothing gets fixed you kick them.

Then you say that anyone who kicks someone for having poor dps is a selfish player, meanwhile the majority of people will try to help those players out first. The player who refuses to take any help or advice (pretty much anyone you call out on doing bad dps) and instead wastes multiple peoples time, day in and day out week after week is the more selfish person, do we need a dictionary definition for you here or will you accept the fallacy of your "selfish" statements yet?

I even stated in my post about the qarn/sastasha hm fights that I tried, tried to do the fight a few times, tried to give rotation advice, tried the fight again, but the player refuses to get better and more often than not is very rude and offensive for even being called out in the first place no matter how polite you are about it.

Again I ask you, if your tank or healer was performing absolutely abysmally to the point where the run is going to take 10-15 extra minutes and require a ton of extra work on the part of everyone else, WOULD YOU KICK THEM??

[Aiselia]

look at all your posts.

You didn't. Why should I?

Tell you what. You go back through and read all my posts and I'll consider responding to your arguments. To help, I'd recommend starting at the later posts where I outright say I'm not anti-parser and then going back through with that perspective in mind. At this point, my replies will apparently simply be the same thing as I've had to say repeatedly to people pretending they know my argument, which is going to centre heavily on "I never said that".

Case in point:

Your first argument being that EVERYONE who has poor dps will be kicked

I never said that. In fact, the only time I even suggested it affecting "EVERYONE" was when I used it affecting everyone as an example of hyperbole that is ridiculous and shouldn't be taken seriously.

if your tank or healer was performing absolutely abysmally to the point where the run is going to take 10-15 extra minutes and require a ton of extra work on the part of everyone else, WOULD YOU KICK THEM??

For an extra 10 or 15 minutes? No. For a literal impossibility to clear? Sure.

And before you be all "BUT HYPOCRITE", bear in mind that tanks/healers do not tend to have 30 minute queues, and tanks especially will likely be in a group almost immediately upon requeueing. A vote kick for a tank is a far less harsh penalty than a vote kick for a DPS.

[Gorlioliolio]

I apologize then, you didn't say everyone, just that some people will abuse it and kick out subpar dps.

The selfish statement is one you made though.

It counts as selfish force your will to negatively impact somebody else when you have the option to remove yourself from that party as well as create your own parties. You seem to keep glossing over the fact that nobody is forcing you into DF to deal with these people.

This statement goes 2 ways, and then becomes a matter of math, what is more selfish wasting 1 persons time or wasting 4 peoples time (they are wasting their own time too) by not putting in any effort.

And you have quoted 30 minute dps queues repeatedly, if I have to go find a quote I will because I know I just read it. Since HW I have yet to wait more than 15 minutes as a dps (except when I forgot that me and a fc mate both queued german to get into trial together and had it on for a week). Usually dps queues are more like 5-10 mins.

So let's say 10 mins, you also advocate that their pre-group queue time counts as part of their time wasted if you kick them from the group.

Bad DPS - 10 min queue time, 5 mins in dungeon before kicked (timer) 30 min penalty, 10 min queue - total 55 minutes wasted

That is if you kick them, if you don't the run takes 10-15 minutes longer than it should, multiply that by 4 people (again they are wasting their own time) 40-60 minutes wasted, if we add the queue times (like you advocated) 10 mins for other dps 2-3 mins for healer 53-73 mins wasted. If we add the bad dps as well for wasted time 63-83 mins.

So overall more cumulative time gets wasted by sticking with it when the dps is absolutely terrible.

What is more selfish at this point?

Also you can clear either expert with an afk tank if your dps and heals are really on point, it would probably take an extra 10-15 mins to do so but it is possible. Should you still not kick him?

[Aiselia]

This statement goes 2 ways, and then becomes a matter of math, what is more selfish wasting 1 persons time or wasting 4 peoples time (they are wasting their own time too) by not putting in any effort.

Let's correct your math with a fuller situation in the context of my statement.

Which is more selfish? Wasting potentially half an hour of one person's time by negating their queue and making them wait again (if they even bother) or "wasting" an extra 10 minutes of time?

I could go into more hypothetical stretches by putting forward the situation that the person getting kicked only has an hour or two to play each day due to commitments in real life, which means that losing a half hour queue could either severely limit what else they can do (in the case of a couple hours, a lengthy queue plus the dungeon itself could end up being up to half of their play time) or completely negate them doing anything that day (in the case of one hour, a length queue plus the dungeon IS their day).

Since HW I have yet to wait more than 15 minutes as a dps

Whereas I've waited over that several times depending on the dungeon, as well as I know that other people have too. I suppose it depends on what you queue for.

multiply that by 4 people

Why would you multiply it by the number of people? If a run takes 30 minutes to complete instead of 20 minutes, it didn't take 60 minutes to complete. Each person lost 10 minutes, not 40.

Should you still not kick him?

AFK is a reason in the vote kick options.

Also, since you apparently missed/intentionally ignored this:

People don't argue against parsers because people who auto-attack may get kicked. They argue against parsers because people who may be doing what they think is right may get kicked because some random person arbitrarily decides it's not good enough for them.

Then why are you arguing against parsers?

I'm not. I'm stating SE's viewpoint and why the current arguments don't do anything to defeat that viewpoint, but rather the opposite. The more people who make personal attacks while talking about parsers and say they need them to kick people who might waste 10 minutes of their precious time, the more reason SE has to expect the community can't handle them.

That was an experiment the guy did, after (very likely) having already noticed the exact behavior he showed off in the video many times over.

Which means what to the 10 years of complaints of elitism from the game?

That's the thing you have to be careful about when trying to present someone presenting their personal experience compared to the whole of everyone's experience. In the 10 years that game has been going, how many runs have been completed? Now how many were in the video? I mean, I'm sure it wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that literally millions of dungeon runs are done each year in that game. That video couldn't possibly contain even one millionth of the runs completed in the game's span. This is also operating under the assumption that every time he tried it, he got away with it, and that he isn't just choosing to not show you anything where he did get kicked.

In my experience, as long as the content is actually getting cleared, most people won't care about your DPS. And by most, I mean more than 99%.

So if we're using a handful of runs as proof of something, if I go into, say, 5 dungeon runs and only auto-attack and get kicked from each one, is that proof that this game is more toxic than WoW, where someone did a handful of runs and didn't get kicked?

[StouterTaru]

I could go into more hypothetical stretches by putting forward the situation that the person getting kicked only has an hour or two to play each day due to commitments in real life, which means that losing a half hour queue could either severely limit what else they can do (in the case of a couple hours, a lengthy queue plus the dungeon itself could end up being up to half of their play time) or completely negate them doing anything that day (in the case of one hour, a length queue plus the dungeon IS their day).

You keep talking about being booted for making dungeons take a little longer, there's much more content to the game. People that care that much about speeding through a dungeon as fast as possible don't queue up for DF solo/partial group.

In your vast experience, how often have you seen someone kicked from a dungeon that wasn't afk, offline, being a jerk, or blamed for a wipe(s)?

[Erim-Nelhah]

... I'm not anti-parser ...

Then why are you arguing against parsers?

As for your response to the video linked earlier: That was an experiment the guy did, after (very likely) having already noticed the exact behavior he showed off in the video many times over. You know what's funny? After watching that video I thought back on my time playing WoW (at the end of MoP and the start of WoD), and realized that I've seen the exact same thing as well, even to the point of a fellow healer (Yes, I was a healer in WoW, not a tank) setting me on /follow and going AFK once...and not even getting noticed by anyone but me. My referencing that video when saying that parsers aren't gonna have much affect on DF content isn't just because of that video, it's also based on my own experience, which is quite similar - basically meaning this: In my experience, as long as the content is actually getting cleared, most people won't care about your DPS. And by most, I mean more than 99%.

--Erim Nelhah