The Real Problem with Parsers

[Aiselia]

To be contrarian instead of making a response?

What part of it deserved a response?

[Malevicton]

What part of it deserved a response?

Well that's the most arrogant thing I've read today.

So you're just trolling at this point?

[Aiselia]

Well that's the most arrogant thing I've read today.

If you choose to take it that way, that's your prerogative. I, however, was asking a serious question.

What part of it deserved a response?

Where he said "These are the stupidest threads ever", suggesting a preformed bias against threads against parsers?
Where he admitted he only got up to 15 pages before "summing it up"?
Where he just made a biased strawman "summary" based on his own self-admitted lack of knowledge of what the thread actually contains because he didn't read it all?

Which of those parts deserved a response? Which of those should I respond to that I shouldn't expect should just be a giant waste of my time because he likely won't bother reading it fairly?

[Malevicton]

So why respond to it at all?

Why not make an actual point instead of just shitting on someone's post?

[Aiselia]

So why respond to it at all?

Why not make an actual point instead of just shitting on someone's post?

Here's a couple better questions.

Why are you getting on my case instead of his for making a biased strawman post in the first place?

Why are you not accusing him of trolling by literally referring to the anti-parser side as "bad player"?

I think this line of questioning is over, don't you? It is for me anyways, as it's getting off topic.

[Gorlioliolio]

You called people who kick an underperforming dps "selfish" for wasting everyones time many many times throughout those first 15 pages. Your quite apparent lack of ability to understand the word selfish is what made me quit reading, you want a strawman argument go back and look at all your posts.

Your first argument being that EVERYONE who has poor dps will be kicked, this has been refuted multiple times by people. Basically the general consensus is that first you try to talk to the player, then you give it a shot anyways, then if they still haven't started putting in effort you kick. Again this is the same as if your tank or healer perform poorly, you try a couple times but if nothing gets fixed you kick them.

Then you say that anyone who kicks someone for having poor dps is a selfish player, meanwhile the majority of people will try to help those players out first. The player who refuses to take any help or advice (pretty much anyone you call out on doing bad dps) and instead wastes multiple peoples time, day in and day out week after week is the more selfish person, do we need a dictionary definition for you here or will you accept the fallacy of your "selfish" statements yet?

I even stated in my post about the qarn/sastasha hm fights that I tried, tried to do the fight a few times, tried to give rotation advice, tried the fight again, but the player refuses to get better and more often than not is very rude and offensive for even being called out in the first place no matter how polite you are about it.

Again I ask you, if your tank or healer was performing absolutely abysmally to the point where the run is going to take 10-15 extra minutes and require a ton of extra work on the part of everyone else, WOULD YOU KICK THEM??

[Aiselia]

look at all your posts.

You didn't. Why should I?

Tell you what. You go back through and read all my posts and I'll consider responding to your arguments. To help, I'd recommend starting at the later posts where I outright say I'm not anti-parser and then going back through with that perspective in mind. At this point, my replies will apparently simply be the same thing as I've had to say repeatedly to people pretending they know my argument, which is going to centre heavily on "I never said that".

Case in point:

Your first argument being that EVERYONE who has poor dps will be kicked

I never said that. In fact, the only time I even suggested it affecting "EVERYONE" was when I used it affecting everyone as an example of hyperbole that is ridiculous and shouldn't be taken seriously.

if your tank or healer was performing absolutely abysmally to the point where the run is going to take 10-15 extra minutes and require a ton of extra work on the part of everyone else, WOULD YOU KICK THEM??

For an extra 10 or 15 minutes? No. For a literal impossibility to clear? Sure.

And before you be all "BUT HYPOCRITE", bear in mind that tanks/healers do not tend to have 30 minute queues, and tanks especially will likely be in a group almost immediately upon requeueing. A vote kick for a tank is a far less harsh penalty than a vote kick for a DPS.

[Gorlioliolio]

I apologize then, you didn't say everyone, just that some people will abuse it and kick out subpar dps.

The selfish statement is one you made though.

It counts as selfish force your will to negatively impact somebody else when you have the option to remove yourself from that party as well as create your own parties. You seem to keep glossing over the fact that nobody is forcing you into DF to deal with these people.

This statement goes 2 ways, and then becomes a matter of math, what is more selfish wasting 1 persons time or wasting 4 peoples time (they are wasting their own time too) by not putting in any effort.

And you have quoted 30 minute dps queues repeatedly, if I have to go find a quote I will because I know I just read it. Since HW I have yet to wait more than 15 minutes as a dps (except when I forgot that me and a fc mate both queued german to get into trial together and had it on for a week). Usually dps queues are more like 5-10 mins.

So let's say 10 mins, you also advocate that their pre-group queue time counts as part of their time wasted if you kick them from the group.

Bad DPS - 10 min queue time, 5 mins in dungeon before kicked (timer) 30 min penalty, 10 min queue - total 55 minutes wasted

That is if you kick them, if you don't the run takes 10-15 minutes longer than it should, multiply that by 4 people (again they are wasting their own time) 40-60 minutes wasted, if we add the queue times (like you advocated) 10 mins for other dps 2-3 mins for healer 53-73 mins wasted. If we add the bad dps as well for wasted time 63-83 mins.

So overall more cumulative time gets wasted by sticking with it when the dps is absolutely terrible.

What is more selfish at this point?

Also you can clear either expert with an afk tank if your dps and heals are really on point, it would probably take an extra 10-15 mins to do so but it is possible. Should you still not kick him?

[Erim-Nelhah]

... I'm not anti-parser ...

Then why are you arguing against parsers?

As for your response to the video linked earlier: That was an experiment the guy did, after (very likely) having already noticed the exact behavior he showed off in the video many times over. You know what's funny? After watching that video I thought back on my time playing WoW (at the end of MoP and the start of WoD), and realized that I've seen the exact same thing as well, even to the point of a fellow healer (Yes, I was a healer in WoW, not a tank) setting me on /follow and going AFK once...and not even getting noticed by anyone but me. My referencing that video when saying that parsers aren't gonna have much affect on DF content isn't just because of that video, it's also based on my own experience, which is quite similar - basically meaning this: In my experience, as long as the content is actually getting cleared, most people won't care about your DPS. And by most, I mean more than 99%.

--Erim Nelhah

[Leigaon]

I think both Aisela and Gorlio did a pretty good way of summing it up. On both sides you have the good and the bad, these two are naturally going to cross with each other.

You got the one side who will want to use the parsing to help make sure a run goes smooth or if there is someone who is not carrying their weight in a EX or Endgame like scenario. Hopefully in response the person takes the suggestions and tries to improve. Then you got the part where you see someone abuse it, they see a dungeon run where the person isn't performing as well as what they're use to seeing and get upset. In this scenario, with some exceptions, there's no real reason to get upset and kick someone over it unless you're someone who demands the perfect and has no flexibility or understanding for the other player.

I believe it is a good thing when used correctly, but it takes both sides the person who is eyeing that parsing number and the person(s) who are in the group of "you aren't doing as well as you should be..."

I wouldn't mind it, but I would only take so much from someone depending on the situation. When I decide to do some end-game stuff and someone goes "Your smn isn't putting out as much as it should" I'll discuss gear, rotations with you and if it gets that bad I'll accept the leave with a bit of pain..and work on it. Then you got the person who will just disgrace you and spit on you for not living up to their expectations in something as simple as Garuda HM or a 4 man dungeon. Of course there's things such as someone who just auto-attacks or sits there waiting for things to die..this can help.

End result, at least for me, it is a good tool if used for it's correct purpose and you're not dealing with a jerk from either end of the conversation. I got no fear of someone parsing me, but if I'm not living up to the expectations I expect guidance whether it's in my gear (high ilv or focus on more det / crit etc...) or if it's my rotation I need to work down. (I found it hard to remember to use Ruin III while under my trance as SMN for a while for example) in return it's my job as a player to work on my game and better myself so that I can assist in making the run as smooth as possible.