The Real Problem with Parsers

[Whiteroom]

So really, if anyone's arguing for the sake of arguing, it's the people who obstinately just put forth arguments like "Jerks will be jerks, gimme parser" or "Getting kicked builds character, git gud, gimme parser". I, on the other hand, have actually put some effort into considering ways parsers could be added for the sake of everybody without stepping on peoples' toes.

Actually, the jerks gonna be jerks is simply stating that claiming parsers create jerks is a fallacy. The jerks are already there, being jerks, the only thing parsers bring is that they can say a number when they are being jerks.... But most people understand that much anyway.


Also, lol, you put forth effort and "considered" personal parsers. Wow. Who, that has put more than a couple minutes of thought into parsers, has not thought of personal ones.

They usually come to the correct conclusion, that they are nothing more than a half measure that is largely useless. A number with out something to compare it to, means nothing. Oh, you thought they could come to forums to find out... if they don't come to read up on proper rotations already, they aren't coming for a number that means nothing to them. Oh, they could share? Lets look at that, why would they, what do they gain. Then, as you obviously haven't considered, according to your parsers will make everyone jerkfaces logic, people who wouldn't share would be kicked as they would be deemed to be hiding bad numbers.

They also don't allow you to diagnose potential problem areas in a run.

Personal parsers are a huge half measure. So please don't claim some "I, on the other hand put deep thought into this" status.

And yes, I skip through most of your posts, you used disabled people as a defense against parsers.... come on, of course I skip through most of it after that.

[Clarkamite]

Snip

I think, generally, offering up a personal parser as a solution is seen as sort of a compromise. Personally as a console player, I'd much rather have a parser that shows me everything like ACT does for PC players, but rather than asking for one like that I'd be fine asking for a personal one. It would show me what I need to see and the people who are afraid of parsers wouldn't really have a good argument to not include one.

I'll still be able to research what my numbers should be at on the forums and reddit and I'll still be able to compare numbers in my static group. True some people won't know what their number means, but those are the same people that couldn't care less (or are against having one) regardless.

I think SE would be more inclined to include a personal parser before one that operates like ACT does. I could be way off but I feel like they wouldn't really want to stir the pot on this issue. It's already really sensitive for some people as it is. Giving everyone the option of having an official personal parser is a good compromise. The people doing serious content as a group will be able to work on what they need to and compare numbers and see where issues might be, console players will be able to make minor tweaks and try out new rotations and CD usage without having to ask after literally every run, "Ok how was I that time? Where did I peak? What about this phase?" and people against parsing could all just not turn theirs on.

You get points for a clever turn of phrase, but you really can't expect many intelligent anti-parser arguments. This isn't necessarily because people are stupid, but I think that a few points are relevant:


1. Many players who might object to parsers probably don't even frequent the forums. Of those players, I bet that a good portion aren't even currently aware of the existence of parsers.

2. There aren't many arguments against the inclusion of some form of official parsing that haven't been presented many times before and been, in most cases, soundly rebutted. At best we get nebulous arguments that claim that official parsing will contribute negatively to the culture of the game; at worst we get nonsense arguments about parsers turning people anti-social, many of which pretend that parsers aren't already in use.

3. The fact that parsers are in use goes a long way to dispel any notion of disadvantaged (or just plain bad) people being excluded from content any more than they already are.

4. Some players looking for a form of official parser want it because they play on a console so that they can enjoy the same kind of metric feedback that PC players already do.

^this exactly.

My big issue with people against having an official parser is they generally don't realize how useful of a tool it would be. I often see them saying how every serious group will have a person with a parser in the group already so having an official one wouldn't change anything so the people for one should just keep quiet. But there's more to it then just knowing your number at the end of a clear. I can't ask my raid members to keep track of my numbers and different points of the fight just to see where I begin to dip. I can't ask them to watch me and only me to see where my numbers change and how my cool down usage changes things.

That type of knowledge only comes from having one yourself and being able to watch it. Sure, you don't care to do that but why can't I? My only option right now would be to buy a ridiculously priced setup of a PC, purchase a new license of the game for a PC, just so I could download an add-on that isn't even officially sanctioned to be able to watch my numbers. I'm dedicated to my craft, but I'm not willing to drop that amount of money and time on something like that.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I would be forced into buying the absolute best setup of PC. I'm just saying that dropping even a thousand on a setup for literally one game wouldn't be worth it in the long run. I'd rather take a vacation somewhere with my girlfriend, then spend a grand on a PC.

[Whiteroom]

I think, generally, offering up a personal parser as a solution is seen as sort of a compromise. Personally as a console player, I'd much rather have a parser that shows me everything like ACT does for PC players, but rather than asking for one like that I'd be fine asking for a personal one. It would show me what I need to see and the people who are afraid of parsers wouldn't really have a good argument to not include one.

I'll still be able to research what my numbers should be at on the forums and reddit and I'll still be able to compare numbers in my static group.

The problem here is, if they introduce a half measure like that, then that is what you are stuck with for the rest of the game. At best an expansion or two. If you are going to put something in, do the proper one. With half of one there, it is unlikely they will justify using the resources to flesh out a new one.


Obviously you, or I, or anyone who has bothered to come to the forums would probably look with a personal parser. But we are already here, so that's kind of preaching to the choir. Its people who don't bother, and are unable to reference what that number actually means that won't, and most likely need that info for improvement the most.

Having the full parser in DCUO was so handy. You could see how well you were doing, what people of similar class and gear were doing. And yeah, if some one was putting out 1/4 of the damage they should be. You could also see healing out, damage in etc.

[Kimky]

The think that make me sad is that there is already one parser in the game. I remember seeing a video of the dev fighting something and you could see the dps number in chat.

I can understand some people dont like parser but you gotta understand how this game works, it's based on dps, not on surviving mechanics.

[Clarkamite]

The problem here is, if they introduce a half measure like that, then that is what you are stuck with for the rest of the game. At best an expansion or two. If you are going to put something in, do the proper one. With half of one there, it is unlikely they will justify using the resources to flesh out a new one.

I guess my point is, if you're choosing between not having one or having one that only shows your numbers, what are you going to take? Yes, I'd much rather have access to a full meter but lets be honest, do you really think the chances of them making one that does the full measurements and tells you everyone's numbers are good? I don't think SE would want to risk that. This game definitely caters to both crowds and the casual crowd wouldn't like a full parser being available, obviously, they cry enough as is.

[Whiteroom]

...but lets be honest, do you really think the chances of them making one that does the full measurements and tells you everyone's numbers are good? I don't think SE would want to risk that. This game definitely caters to both crowds and the casual crowd wouldn't like a full parser being available.

Yes, I do believe the chances are good (if they make the decision to add one). They continue to use dps checks as a major mechanic, and they continue to receive feedback that we need a way to see dps if this is the case. A full one is very useful, despite what some would say.

I don't think the casual crowd (though from your comment, I think we have different definitions of casual crowd) would be put out by a parser, and would benefit from it as well.

Of course, you will see threads pop up against it, if implemented, but there are threads against everything implemented in game. Look at the hairstyle contest for example, no less than a dozen threads criticizing it.

And yes, you will see the odd abuse of it, by someone who doesn't know how to read it. But there isn't a single feature that you can implement in game that isn't abused in some way by someone.

Coming from games that have them, they were beneficial to everyone except the odd person who absolutely refused to do anything, (those people who would pretty much stand there and put out 10%-25% of people in relevant endgame). In lower, easier content people weren't kicked since it didn't impact the outcome of the run.