The Real Problem with Parsers

[Aiselia]

people like you

People like me? You mean people like me who want a personal parser so people can improve but don't see how the subjective benefits of a party parser objectively outweigh what SE expects will happen?

by claiming suddenly more "good players" would become much more aggressive

I don't have to claim that. The pro-parser side already proves it by saying that they'd totally take people to task over low DPS even in content that doesn't have DPS checks at all. Regardless, that's not my claim. That's SE's fear. It's irrelevant if I make that claim because you still have to prove SE wrong. If I stayed out of this thread completely? Yeah, SE would still think the same thing.

to cause unneeded dispute

Who says it's unneeded? Remember, SE already has the stance that they don't want people to turn into mouthy jerks if they let them talk about others' DPS. If you want to try to help get parsers, you've got to somehow convince them that they're wrong. Which means dispute is absolutely needed. I'd also put forward that it's a litmus test for their own fears. If people can't even handle talking ABOUT parsers without resorting to personal attacks, why should SE expect that they can handle USING parsers without personal attacks?

a tool that would be valuable in helping DPS players improve ten-fold.

I've also said that I have zero problems with personal parsers to be allowed to see one's own output so they can improve if they care, and that that would be a safe middle ground for SE to implement because they can still maintain their current policy of not bringing up others' specific DPS because they shouldn't be able to see someone else's with a personal parser.

I've also said that I have zero problems with personal parsers to be allowed to see one's own output so they can improve if they care, and that that would be a safe middle ground for SE to implement because they can still maintain their current policy of not bringing up others' specific DPS because they shouldn't be able to see someone else's with a personal parser.

I've also said that I have zero problems with personal parsers to be allowed to see one's own output so they can improve if they care, and that that would be a safe middle ground for SE to implement because they can still maintain their current policy of not bringing up others' specific DPS because they shouldn't be able to see someone else's with a personal parser.

I've also said that I have zero problems with personal parsers to be allowed to see one's own output so they can improve if they care, and that that would be a safe middle ground for SE to implement because they can still maintain their current policy of not bringing up others' specific DPS because they shouldn't be able to see someone else's with a personal parser.

I can quote it again if you like. I'm not against people having a tool to improve their DPS. I'm against people using said tool to be jerks.

Then we could have a thread full of plenty of positive support for parsers.

Coming from people who completely admit that they'll be the people that SE doesn't want?

Thing is these people you mention would be 'elitists' with or without one.

And they're not allowed to talk about numbers now, which holds back their elitism. Seems like most people just want to be able to let that elitism out. It's a pretty poor argument for parsers for people to say they're completely going to act how SE fears.

Adding in an official parser would wake some up to how they're holding back the other 3 or 7 players also paying for a sub.

Which a personal parser can completely do, which I've already said repeatedly I'm absolutely fine with and is a great middle ground for SE because it lets people see their DPS to improve but prevents people from seeing others' DPS to be the elitists SE doesn't want them to be.

The easiest way to allay this fear is to do a respectable amount of dps.

Who decides what's respectable? The elitists expecting perfection in all content, or the masses who don't care as long as they get through it?

[Malevicton]

Who decides what's respectable? The elitists expecting perfection in all content, or the masses who don't care as long as they get through it?

Probably somewhere in the middle :P Really, elitists expecting perfection in all content are extremely rare. They're around, but rare. People do expect something higher than 300 dps though.

Most "elitists" are aware that things like mechanics, ilvl, different jobs, etc, can all have a significant effect on dps. So very few people will expect 1200+ in dungeons/primals. But really regardless of ilvl, job, mechanics, skill, or whatever, people should be able to pull about 600-700 dps on a boss. I think that would be closer to the expectation than perfection would.

[randysquirrel]

Who decides what's respectable? The elitists expecting perfection in all content, or the masses who don't care as long as they get through it?

It is down to each individual's personal judgment. What is respectable to me may not be respectable to someone else, and vice versa. Exactly the same way, at present, my level of tolerance in doing a duty, may be very different to what someone else will tolerate.

Apologies if I have not addressed your point, but I don't really understand the point you are making.

I would be interested in your opinion of what I suggested for a parser with different settings.

[Aiselia]

It is down to each individual's personal judgment. What is respectable to me may not be respectable to someone else, and vice versa. Exactly the same way, at present, my level of tolerance in doing a duty, may be very different to what someone else will tolerate.

But then that doesn't necessarily allay any fears at all, does it? It still puts the power in the hands of the elitists to decide what's acceptable.

I mean, bear in mind that I'm not talking about high end content where DPS really is super important or you're simply not finishing it. I'm talking about things like Expert Roulette where people will demand a certain level of DPS or kick even if the only downside to having lower DPS than that is the run takes 10 minutes longer.

I would be interested in your opinion of what I suggested for a parser with different settings.

If they make a rule saying you're not allowed to demand public settings or kick in duty finder and it's an actionable offence to do such, or possibly just make it private-only in DF, I think it'd work. It'd cement more of the idea that DF is for people who don't care or are willing to take the risk that not everyone in the run will be optimal and PF/premades are better for people who want control over what they're getting.

I also put forth the idea in another thread that they'd be personal parsers, period, but you could have a "Share to:" button to share with specific people and "Share to Party" button which shares to your current party. That way, you've got more control over who actually sees it and if wipes happen which are DPS check wipes rather than simply mechanic wipes, you could either have a designated person be the one to share things to or just simply share to the party. And, I mean, if you fail a DPS check and 3 DPS share theirs and they're all fine and the last refuses, you could probably guess where the problem lies, and not only that, but you know that if the person refuses to share it when everyone else is shown to be good and the assumption is that it's because the person is embarrassed by it, it's likely the person is obstinately refusing to improve, which means they're not likely to accept help. If someone shares it and it's low but is willing to accept tips on rotations, then they can be helped. It makes it that much simpler to figure out who's low because they just need help and who's low because they outright refuse to think they need to get better.

[Benolan]

There is no problem with parsers. The problem is with people refusing to have any sort of personal accountability.

This reminds me of one of my favorite memes... The little girl screaming WE'RE PLAYING A GAME IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE FUN

Just be sure the issue of personal accountability is only applied when needed, not when convenient.

[Elazu]

The reason it was nerfed in the first place was because by the time Ampador came around you were barely exposed to DPS checks at all. If they made it more of a regular/expected thing, people would change accordingly.

You're giving people way too much credit.

I also like how the meaning of 'elitist' has been distorted and seems to just mean 'someone who is capable' on here...

[Aiselia]

I also like how the meaning of 'elitist' has been distorted and seems to just mean 'someone who is capable' on here...

Seemingly only among the people who think that anyone using the word "elitist" is broadly talking about everyone who's capable, rather than considering that they may just literally mean elitists.

[Souljacker]

The thing that many are forgetting is that parsers are already widely in use. Widely. There's two main ones out there that aren't official, and people are using them. SE can either stick their heads in the sand and pretend that people aren't already parsing dps, or they can accept that this is a tool that is going to be used regardless of what they want and obsolete it by making something official and available to EVERYONE to use. Either way, you can't escape jerks who are going to kick you from their parties. You just might not know for certain the reason why you were kicked.

[pandabearcat]

People that care about using parsers are the people already using parsers.

Oh wait, except for PS3 and PS4 players. While I will be the first to laugh at those plebs (I know, its not their fault...but really, mmo on a console?), I do think they should also have the chance to improve.

And with a worthless combat tracker and no real ingame feedback it makes sense that addon support should be added soon which was promised and should've been here by now grrr will also include some sort of dps tracker.

If only to put those console users in their place.

[Viridiana]

Who decides what's respectable? The elitists expecting perfection in all content, or the masses who don't care as long as they get through it?

To be fair, I don't think anyone (even the most elitist jerk) is demanding perfection. I mean, I've never seen any reports of people being kicked for not eating HQ DPS food and using HQ Draco pots in DF. Not even in Ravana PF (well, usually food there in the early days).