The Real Problem with Parsers

[Aiselia]

because their gear can at some point improve.

And the fact that I brought up medical disabilities, I had hoped would have been sufficient to get across that I wasn't talking about gear but ability. Regardless, you also ignored that if someone can't accept 500 DPS when they could be doing 1200 DPS, they're not going to accept 600 DPS when they could be doing 1400, which means that while they might be doing higher numbers, it doesn't actually solve any problems. You claim I'm shifting goalposts, but it's more like you just grabbed the ball and ran off the side of the field.

enough to grind Fractal

Which you couldn't do if you keep getting kicked for having low DPS.

Either the mere potential for abuse is sufficient grounds to not implement something, or it isn't.

Except it isn't inherently an "all or nothing" issue. It entirely can be based around scale of effect. If they decide that the potential for abuse of parsers is just significantly higher than potential for abuse of titles, why do you feel you're owed that explanation of how they come to that?

Arguing against hyporbole is arguing semantics.

No it isn't.

I would take it in context and try to determine if you're being literal.

And whether I was or wasn't, would it prove my point at all? Of course not. If I actually thought that, clearly that'd be stupid. If I didn't think that, then it was irrelevant to bring up because it doesn't support my point. That's why hyperbole doesn't have a place in an argument.

And everyone else is suffering for the minority.

People can convince themselves they're suffering, but that doesn't mean they are. The game's lasted two years without an official parser, so it's not like the parser is necessary for the game's survival.

So accountability would have to come from a tracker of some sort to remember the bad people from prior PFs.

If only there was some sort of in-game list to which we could add the names of people we don't like. Some sort of a really, really dark list. Y'know? Like, so dark it's black or something.

Because the response as typed makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. You asked if I think it's my duty. I said not when others don't think it is. If someone doesn't care enough about how good they are to read their tooltips or look rotations up on the internet, I don't consider it my duty to help them as they probably don't think it's my duty to help them. If they're completely new, I may offer some assistance, but if they've got a full rack of 50+ and still failing, it's either due to willful ignorance or apathy, and I don't feel a duty to find out which.

It's the state the game is still in.

Then current examples suffice.

You really think that Ravana is the hardest content in the game?

EX Primals are meant to be examples of the harder content in the game, yes. I'm sure there's a reason why there's no EX Primal roulette. I honestly doubt they're even designed with DF in mind, which is supported with the fact that when they first come out, you can't DF them.

Some people will listen to numbers.

And some will think that digging for numbers just makes you a bigger jerk.

At this point I'd re-assess if they showed their work.

Then it's a good thing for them that they don't have any accountability to you when choosing what they put in! \o/

Or they can at least explain their reasoning.

Or they could not because they don't honestly need to. It wouldn't make a difference anyways. Do you really think that no matter what expectation they give, you'll agree with it? I don't. Even if they say they only expect a 5% increase in elitism and that's too much for them, people, possibly you, will just argue that it's not high enough to be worth worrying about. But that's not an objective standpoint, and certainly not looking at it from their standpoint as a business that needs customers to make money. That's a subjective standpoint biased by the desire for a parser regardless of who may get trodden on in the process.

You won't get everyone to answer

If they couldn't be bothered to put in a report for harassment, I'd be surprised if they bothered to answer the question, especially if it requires them to leave the game. You'd still have to operate under a major assumption that the responses are accurate and indicative of the whole, as well that they were actually harassed and not just have super thin skin or that someone who was actually harassed just plain didn't care and they answer no.

That's kinda the problem I'm getting at, here.

But it's only a problem to you because you think you can convince them their reasoning is wrong. Problem is, your idea of what are acceptable losses and their idea may not match up, and probably don't, so knowing their figures doesn't help you at all. The best it can do is give you a specific number to say is bunk rather than the whole idea is bunk, but you'd still lack any actual argument to disprove their figures and worries.

Maybe I just assume that they've taking into consideration a reasonable scale of effect and decided it's just not worth it and that whether I personally agree with their scale or what's "worth it" is subjective and since their opinion is what matters (since it's their game and their money at stake), it doesn't matter whether or not I agree.

If you're physically or mentally incapable to do over 700 DPS because of something medical, why are you playing content where it's not even close to being good enough?

How dare people with disabilities want to experience content in the game they pay for?

Also, the argument isn't restricted to only high-end content. 700 DPS is completely good enough for things like Expert Roulette, but some people would still kick over that.

It shows that the average pug really doesn't give a crap about your dps

It shows that he managed to find a few groups that don't care. How many did he run in total? How many did he get kicked out of that he didn't show you? Since when do outliers prove an average? Does this mean that if I go into FFXIV right now and slap myself on follow in 5 dungeon runs and get kicked in each one, that's evidence that 100% of people in FFXIV care about what you do?

If a game's chugging out hundreds/thousands of dungeon runs a day, a video showing a handful is no proof of anything except that examples are really easy to cherry-pick.

[Viridiana]

Regardless, you also ignored that if someone can't accept 500 DPS when they could be doing 1200 DPS, they're not going to accept 600 DPS when they could be doing 1400, which means that while they might be doing higher numbers, it doesn't actually solve any problems. You claim I'm shifting goalposts, but it's more like you just grabbed the ball and ran off the side of the field.

I could probably do close to 1400 DPS with current gear. If I did 550 instead, do you honestly think I'd get kicked?

Except it isn't inherently an "all or nothing" issue. It entirely can be based around scale of effect. If they decide that the potential for abuse of parsers is just significantly higher than potential for abuse of titles, why do you feel you're owed that explanation of how they come to that?

Because they've used the justification before for tells in dungeons even though it appears to have zero effect. So when they trot it out again you ask for evidence.

No it isn't.

And whether I was or wasn't, would it prove my point at all? Of course not.

Does literally every sentence you make have to be directly in support of your argument, or are you allowed to have sentences for flavor to break up the monotony of assertions and questions?

People can convince themselves they're suffering, but that doesn't mean they are. The game's lasted two years without an official parser, so it's not like the parser is necessary for the game's survival.

Right. Because PS3/PS4 players having to rely on others in order to just see their DPS numbers isn't a type of suffering.

If only there was some sort of in-game list to which we could add the names of people we don't like. Some sort of a really, really dark list. Y'know? Like, so dark it's black or something.

Which is awesome for those of us on Balmung or JP servers where gil spam barely happens if at all. I can't say how it's going on other servers, but considering 2,000 accounts have been banned since HW launch for RMT advertisement, I'm guessing other servers have better things to do with their blacklists. Unless you're suggesting that they keep a list of people in their blacklist that are bad so they don't accidentally un-blacklist them when clearing the RMT accounts. Which kinda defeats the point of using the blacklist for it. >_>

If someone doesn't care enough about how good they are to read their tooltips or look rotations up on the internet, I don't consider it my duty to help them as they probably don't think it's my duty to help them.

So people aren't worth helping if they don't help themselves? Very altruistic of you.

EX Primals are meant to be examples of the harder content in the game, yes. I'm sure there's a reason why there's no EX Primal roulette. I honestly doubt they're even designed with DF in mind, which is supported with the fact that when they first come out, you can't DF them.

But you said it was the hardest content. Was that hyperbole, or did you literally mean that it was the hardest content? And really, I was being generous when I asked if you were really saying that Ravana Ex was the hardest content, because you actually referenced "Ex Primals" as the hardest content in the game, which presumably includes Bismark. That means you technically put Bismark Ex over, say, A4S. Unless that was hyperbole, of course. >_>

And some will think that digging for numbers just makes you a bigger jerk.

Ooooooptionnnnns. Options. Say it with me: Options. Maybe look in the mirror as you say it until you can say it without scrunching up your face.

If they couldn't be bothered to put in a report for harassment, I'd be surprised if they bothered to answer the question.

Maybe. Filing a report is way more tedious than clicking a link and hitting a few buttons. Heck, it's something some people could do at work.

since their opinion is what matters (since it's their game and their money at stake), it doesn't matter whether or not I agree.

That's how stagnation happens. If we all took this stance, WAR would still be a joke tank never used for anything end-game. After all, Yoshida told 2.0 WARs to git gud and that WAR was fine.

Edit:

Guys?

Seriously.

It's a good start, but you need like, 10 more lines or so. And I personally prefer to maintain the shiny pictures!

[Aiselia]

If I did 550 instead, do you honestly think I'd get kicked?

Depends who you're grouping with. For example, from the first page of this very thread:

If i queu for a lvl 60 dungeon and someone with similar gear is pulling 500dps while i pull 1.4k, ill kick them

Yes, in that case you would.

Because they've used the justification before for tells in dungeons even though it appears to have zero effect.

Whether or not it appears to have zero effect is irrelevant because you don't have a comparison of what the situation currently would be otherwise. I mean, let's think about this carefully here.

Present situation: Cannot send tells in DF because it might lead to harassment in private. Some people still harass in public.
Assumption: Some people bite their tongue because they don't want to look like a jerk to the entire group because THEY might be kicked instead.
Potential abuse situation: Someone harasses someone else in public, leaving it up to the group to decide who should be kicked, the jerk or the target.

Now let's think about this hypothetical situation in which you can send tells.

Hypothetical situation: Can send tells in DF.
Logical assumption: The people who harass in public are clearly not going to suddenly become nicer. They will either continue to harass in public or just take it to tells.
Assumption: People who bit their tongue to avoid harassing in public now have a private forum to harass.
Obvious statement: You cannot see who's being harassed in tells, which means you have no clue who is being harassed and, most importantly, have no evidence.
Potential abuse situation: Someone wants someone kicked, complains that they're being harassed in tells. Group believes them, kick target gets kicked because the person lied.
Other potential abuse situation: Someone IS getting harassed in tells, complains to group. Group tells them they're a whiner and kicks them.
Other potential abuse situation: Someone is getting harassed in tells, complains to group. Harasser lies and says that the person is lying. Group believes harasser, ignores or kicks the person getting harassed.

I don't think it's particularly arguable which is more easily abused.

Does literally every sentence you make have to be directly in support of your argument

If you're responding to a point with something, then yeah, preferably it'd be nice to have that response have a point.

Because PS3/PS4 players having to rely on others in order to just see their DPS numbers isn't a type of suffering.

An incredibly, incredibly weak form of suffering, I suppose. However, there are PS3/PS4 players perfectly happy without being able to see their DPS numbers, which means it's also not objective suffering. It's self-inflicted suffering.

I'm guessing other servers have better things to do with their blacklists.

It's an option. Of course, if they took reasonable steps to prevent RMT spamming, that'd make the blacklist cleaner, but that's a different subject.

So people aren't worth helping if they don't help themselves? Very altruistic of you.

Like I said, if they're new, I'll try to help. If they're loaded with 50s, it's either willful ignorance or apathy, and it's not worth the time trying to break through that.

But you said it was the hardest content. ... That means you technically put Bismark Ex over, say, A4S.

It's part of the higher tiers of content, evidenced by the stricter DPS necessities and harder mechanics. I didn't say anything about it being harder than A4S. What I did say was maybe people shouldn't try to do the hardest content with random people. That includes Savage, not excludes.

Heck, it's something some people could do at work.

Still runs on the assumption that it's accurate and objective, which, obviously, what is considered harassment by any specific person is not objective.

That's how stagnation happens.

Objective performance of a class is irrelevant to their subjective decision of what are unacceptable projections of elitism.

[Viridiana]

Assumption: Some people bite their tongue because they don't want to look like a jerk to the entire group because THEY might be kicked instead.

So when I make assumptions, they're bad, but when you do it they're cool. Gotcha.

[Aiselia]

So when I make assumptions, they're bad, but when you do it they're cool. Gotcha.

I was waiting for an edit. Is that it?

I didn't say assumptions were bad. I said that they're not objective proof and that your idea of having SE give you numbers based on an assumption wouldn't actually prove anything. And I wasn't using my assumption as objective proof, but as a logical expectation.

I mean, technically what you quoted isn't an assumption at all (except the possible reasoning being that they fear they might be the ones kicked) because I know that there are people who don't say anything in group chat because they don't want to look like a jerk in the whole group.

This game should have a built in private damage meter.

I agree.

[Viridiana]

I was waiting for an edit. Is that it?
...
I mean, technically what you quoted isn't an assumption at all (except the possible reasoning being that they fear they might be the ones kicked) because I know that there are people who don't say anything in group chat because they don't want to look like a jerk in the whole group.

Yeah. This argument is getting boring, and I'm usually pretty willing to spin my wheels in circles for the sake of debate. Also, in case we ever get in a super-fun discussion again, I usually just post "edit incoming" and then paste in my full post. So if you see something shorter than that, there probably isn't more coming.

But anyway, you have anecdotal evidence that people don't want to be perceived as a jerk, but not objective evidence that what they're choosing not to say would actually be harassment.

[Aiselia]

Yeah. This argument is getting boring

But... but... now the pages of this thread will be so short even with the same amount of posts! The scroll bar for the page will actually be allowed to grow larger than a sliver! Who will suppress the scroll bar from growing too large?!?

But anyway, you have anecdotal evidence that people don't want to be perceived as a jerk, but not objective evidence that what they're choosing not to say would actually be harassment.

Yeah, didn't say it was objective harassment, just that they wouldn't want to look like they were to the whole group.

It goes to the whole "scale of effect" thing. SE came to the conclusion that disabling tells but leaving in chat had more benefits to outweigh potential abuse, and they came to the entirely separate conclusion that the benefits of having a built-in party-visible parser doesn't outweigh potential abuse. They're just two different scales is all.