The Real Problem with Parsers

[OPneedNerfs]

If they don't know if nothing's getting done because they're not told either way, turning the punishment around back to them is a surefire way to get them to quit. Good luck trying to convince SE with your argument. "Hey, go institute a policy that will make you lose money because I don't want to deal with bads any more, kthx."

So your argument is that:

People who know how to play a game and are willing to invest their time and effort into it suck it up or quit

in defense of people who don't know how to play and can't be bothered to do better?

Or they'll learn how to premake parties and group with people they know are good. Either way, someone's got to learn something.

I'm not even gonna start with how you think the DF is only for bads due to JP/NA server differences we've obviously experienced.

If, hypothetically speaking, everyone follows your advice and "learn how to premake parties and group with people they know are good", wouldn't the bunch you're defending quit because nothing would get done? No tanks or healers who want to deal with low dps and let's be real here, anyone who doesn't bother to learn basic dps rotations won't be bothered to tank/heal. Better yet, they DO go into a tank/heal class yet can't hold threat/keep people alive.

[Aiselia]

So your argument is that:

No, my argument is that you should think up a better argument if you want to convince SE of something. Telling them they should do something that will lose them money is not going to convince them.

I'm not even gonna start with how you think the DF is only for bads

Good, because I've never said that. What I have said is that if you don't want to deal with random bads, don't queue in a thing that can give you random bads.

wouldn't the bunch you're defending quit because nothing would get done?

I don't know, would they? You realize that taking things to an extreme is not an effective way to disprove an argument, right? Not everybody who's competent cares about whether or not a bad DPS is going to add 10 minutes to their DF run. So taking it to the extreme point of everybody is largely irrelevant unless you think that it's a logically likely scenario.

Not everybody that's competent is impatient.

unfortunately I think the reason a fair amount of people are like that is because of mistreatment. If there weren't jerks around who handled lack of skill on the part of their teammates ... poorly or in a mean spirited manner, I feel like a fair amount of the paranoid people would be a bit more open to helpful critiques.

(Preface: I'm agreeing) Brings to mind the phrase, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you." One can call people paranoid that people will misuse the information and abuse others over it, but that doesn't mean that there aren't already historical grounds on which that paranoia is based. If people played another game with parsers in it and were subject to elitism and jerks (or even if not subject, witnesses to) in that, they have no real reason to expect that it'd be any different here. Like I think I said earlier in this thread (or maybe another one), I got kicked from a group in WoW because I was on a freshly-max level character and was running literally the easiest heroic dungeon at the time in order to start gearing up. The rest of the group was in raid gear and expected me to match their DPS, which was logically stupid and literally impossible. Do I have any reason to expect that it would be any different here? Especially considering it would be worse here because my queue for that dungeon was only like 5 minutes at the time. Here, it could be half an hour.

No one is entitled to the time of 3-7-23 other people.

No more than anyone is entitled to outright waste the time of even a single other person. If you kick someone from a group because of low DPS, you have outright wasted their queue time. If they then queue again, all you've done is displaced whose time is being wasted. If they get kicked again, more of their time is being wasted. Because you think your time is inherently more valuable than theirs.

There's an epidemic in society today that people think that it's okay to inconvenience others harsher than they would have been inconvenienced just because it's someone else.

[OPneedNerfs]

Good, because I've never said that. What I have said is that if you don't want to deal with random bads, don't queue in a thing that can give you random bads.

Too bad there is absolutely no guarantee of said random bads not joining PF is there? Back to square one again. Same problem. So then the people in the PF are justified to kick, but then still get reported and "waste the time and resources" as I quote from what you said of SE. Your solution to not use DF is not a solution at all.

Not everybody that's competent is impatient.

Not everybody that's incompetent is patient either. Hasn't there been enough scenarios of the actual bads going "you guys suck" and leaving before the other more patient competent ones?

I don't know, would they? You realize that taking things to an extreme is not an effective way to disprove an argument, right? Not everybody who's competent cares about whether or not a bad DPS is going to add 10 minutes to their DF run. So taking it to the extreme point of everybody is largely irrelevant unless you think that it's a logically likely scenario.

lol *ahem*

Brilliant, and then they can lose paying customers because not only do they feel the players are attacking them, they can feel like SE wants the players to keep attacking them because THEY are the ones getting punished for feeling attacked enough to report!

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At this point, it's just everyone repeating the same old arguments over and over. Neither side is going to convince the other that their views are wrong/right. The only thing to do is agree to disagree and continue playing and enjoy the game however it is we've been enjoying it up till now.

General rule of thumb for the competent,
Meet a bad that is causing the content to be unclearable? Don't mention parsers, don't harass, just kick or leave/disband. Got reported? If you haven't said anything that breaks ToS, you won't get banned.

[Aiselia]

Too bad there is absolutely no guarantee of said random bads not joining PF is there?

I see, you don't have a FC or a friends list or people you know that you can group with?

Hasn't there been enough scenarios of the actual bads going "you guys suck" and leaving before the other more patient competent ones?

I don't know. I've never seen that.

lol *ahem*

That's not taking things to an extreme, though. That's a logical scenario. If someone keeps getting kicked for having low DPS and reports every one, are you saying it's not logical for them to feel even more angry when they get punished instead?

Neither side is going to convince the other that their views are wrong/right.

And fortunately, I don't have to convince anybody their views are wrong. They have to convince SE that their views are wrong.

In a way, one could consider this thread as a parser for their arguments against SE, which is the savage content they want to clear. The people who outright admit they'll call out people on their DPS more if it's allowed and the ones that get ragey and insult people in this thread already? They're the bad DPS that will hold back the clear because they're proving the paranoia right. The good DPS are the ones who make arguments that are civil and logical and actually prove SE wrong, rather than trying to shove aside their concerns and say it just doesn't matter.

Convincing me is, of course, irrelevant because I don't make the decision, but trying to convince me is a way to tune the arguments to be effective (for example, instead of outright demanding group parsers, some people have more intelligently suggested that personal parsers are put in for those who only want a tool for self improvement, with an option to share it with the group), rather than just bounce the same things off of, which I guess makes me the practice dummy. \o/

With your own logic you are giving ISIS permission to commit atrocities.

Wow, really? Are you really making the claim that SE being perfectly capable of looking at peoples' screenshots and videos and seeing parsers and banning them for using it, or my own example of watching somebody rob my house right in front of me, is somehow analogous to me being absolutely incapable of stopping people that I don't know and can't affect from doing something across the world from me? I think I'm just going to start ignoring you now, because with every post, your arguments are just getting worse to the point where I'm pretty sure you're just trolling.

parsers wouldn't change anything.

Prove it.

By this point, you have to be trolling.

I'm sorry you think that.

[Elazu]

No more than anyone is entitled to outright waste the time of even a single other person. If you kick someone from a group because of low DPS, you have outright wasted their queue time. If they then queue again, all you've done is displaced whose time is being wasted. If they get kicked again, more of their time is being wasted. Because you think your time is inherently more valuable than theirs.

By this point, you have to be trolling.