The Real Problem with Parsers

[Tsilyi]

I'm still waiting for the day that any person who's ever argued against a parser and then took time out of their day to belittle me about my stance on it, to come up with a legitimate reason why a PERSONAL PARSER shouldn't be implemented.

I invite every one of you against parsers to come up with an argument. The main argument we always come back to is that it can be used as harassment. Well you can't be harassed for something no one else can see. I want to know my numbers. I couldn't care less about yours until it becomes detrimental to the groups success. There's no argument that I can think of where me knowing my own numbers at any given time would be bad.

I'm not for or against the widespread use of parsers and cannot conform or deny whether I use them myself on certain content but I can give you an easy argument against personal parsers. I'm not sure why you think personal parsers are the answer because the argument against them is so simple: There is NO SUCH THING. A personal parser stop being personal the moment it is introduced into the game. Want to know how? "send us a SS of your parse or kick" or the like. Yes, you can do this on PS4 at the very least using a screenshot sent to another PS4 user.

So as soon as any kind of parser is introduced into the game they can and will be abused in negative ways. I play on PC so it doesn't matter at all to me, but yes. An easy argument can be made to dismantle the "personal parser" idea, but like I said, I don't care either way.

[Malevicton]

snip

I really don't think the "send us ss of parse or kick" thing will ever happen. Not even sure where people get that idea, let alone why everyone seems to think it's the natural conclusion. It feels sorta paranoid to me tbh.

However, if they really went the personal parser route then people will just keep using the parsers they use now. A personal parser would be a downgrade of functionality.

[Tsilyi]

I really don't think the "send us ss of parse or kick" thing will ever happen. Not even sure where people get that idea, let alone why everyone seems to think it's the natural conclusion. It feels sorta paranoid to me tbh.

it's not paranoia, and I cannot divulge whether I personally use a parser on content, but I can guarantee that once any kind of parser is allowed by SE, people will become more overt in their exclusion of people by utilizing it even if it's a "personal" parser. Honestly, I think that the instances of parser abuse are probably lower than people claim because people tend to overemphasize their bad experiences... but I can tell you that the scenario I posed will absolutely happen. I am not worried about it, but it will happen.

Basically, what I'm saying is that an argument CAN be made against personal parsers. The post I was responding to dared someone to come up with a retort to personal parser and so I did, really easily. Parsers are good for testing different rotations and I wouldn't be against them if they entered the game at large, but they can and will be used to exclude people regardless of whether they are marketed as "personal" parsers.

[Malevicton]

snip

No offense, but you didn't really give any support or evidence to why you think it would happen. You just reiterated that you believe it will happen. Which is fine to believe, but isn't really evidence of anything; it doesn't really convince anyone that's not already on your side.

[Tsilyi]

No offense, but you didn't really give any support or evidence to why you think it would happen. You just reiterated that you believe it will happen. Which is fine to believe, but isn't really evidence of anything; it doesn't really convince anyone that's not already on your side.

If you think I have a side then my god I have no idea what you're reading. The support is that people have made posts on the forums about being excluded by even third party illegal parsers, so it only stands to reason that the same will happen with "personal" parsers. Do I need to reiterate that I'm not against parsers in general and I think they can be a helpful tool to improve or compare yourself with others of the same class especially? I probably do (though I'm not sure you'll see it the third time either) because I think you are just reading something in your mind and want to argue for no reason. You're talking past me. Do I also need to add that I am not worried about being excluded by any kind of parser, or will you not read that either? -_-

Honestly, I'm not here to argue, and I'm not going to bother posting any more to respond to some mysterious fight you seem to want to have with me. A poster asked someone to come up with a reason that personal parsers wouldn't basically be a no-brainer alternative to allowing full parsers in the game and so I did. I have no quarrel with you or the original poster that I responded to. So I don't understand what justified your responses.

[Malevicton]

snip

I'm reading your posts, there's no need to be insulting. Semantics of the word "side" aside, you were making a claim that I disagree with. I haven't really seen these post of people being excluded by 3rd party parsers, I've only seen hypotheticals about people being worried that they might be excluded by parsers. Feel free to add links to prove that wrong if you want. Even if it is, that still doesn't follow that people will require ss of personal parsers.

You don't need to reiterate your personal take on parsers. Those are fine. I'm not talking past you, I'm pointing out where I disagree, which was on that one point, and saying why. You seem a bit offended that I disagree with you on something, tbh, though maybe I'm misinterpreting your tone.

[Erim-Nelhah]

but I can tell you that the scenario I posed will absolutely happen.

Do you think that scenario is going to happen in the duty finder? Because I'll be honest: I really don't care if it happens in PF - the person creating the party sets the rules. Don't like the rules? Don't join that party. If it happens in the duty finder, it's going to be one of those few things that gets me to initiate a votekick on someone - you joined DF, which means that you agreed to help a group of random people clear a duty. Asking for Parse SS or kick/leave in DF is just rude, and if you're wiping because of low dps you probably already know who's doing badly, and can simply ask everyone to state their parse in chat (so that the bad player, even if he doesn't, can see what the others are parsing).

tl;dr: If I see your scenario in PF, I don't care, assuming it was stated in the PF listing. If I see that happening in DF, I'm probably gonna pre-emptively votekick the requestor.

--Erim Nelhah

[Elazu]

I really don't think the "send us ss of parse or kick" thing will ever happen. Not even sure where people get that idea, let alone why everyone seems to think it's the natural conclusion. It feels sorta paranoid to me tbh.

However, if they really went the personal parser route then people will just keep using the parsers they use now. A personal parser would be a downgrade of functionality.

Definitely mainly a paranoia thing. The majority of people are terrified by the idea of a parser and come up with all these weird reasons why parsers are the devil (not saying you are one of those @Tsilyi) because it will expose them and they'd finally have to learn to play the game.

[Tsilyi]

Definitely mainly a paranoia thing. The majority of people are terrified by the idea of a parser and come up with all these weird reasons why parsers are the devil (not saying you are one of those @Tsilyi) because it will expose them and they'd finally have to learn to play the game.

Not gonna say I disagree with your assessment for the most part but unfortunately I think the reason a fair amount of people are like that is because of mistreatment. If there weren't jerks around who handled lack of skill on the part of their teammates (yes, team! we're all on a team... except for pvp, I guess) poorly or in a mean spirited manner, I feel like a fair amount of the paranoid people would be a bit more open to helpful critiques. Then again, there are also some people who simply are defensive by nature and there is not much we can to do help them. It's going to be rough either way. I've played a multitude of mmos that had parsers and I can't say I've personally been bothered by their inclusion, but wherever they go, people DO have some pretty awful experiences (however exaggerated the regularity of them might be).

Anything that gets added to the game can be ammunition for harassment.

part of me gets a kick out of how people with parsers or who consider themselves super skilled point to others not meeting their requirements for skill as harassment and on the opposite end people who are not so skilled sometimes consider the mere existence of parsers as harassment. Everything already IS harassment! D: Will we ever recover?