The Real Problem with Parsers

[Viridiana]

It counts as selfish force your will to negatively impact somebody else when you have the option to remove yourself from that party as well as create your own parties. You seem to keep glossing over the fact that nobody is forcing you into DF to deal with these people.

And nobody is forcing me to stay in my home country, either, but that doesn't make it selfish to try to improve my country instead of just leaving it. Even if that means, say, taxes go up for someone.

If someone leaves the game because people are just kicking them, well...

It's their fault for not exercising their option to get better. Or are you saying they have no autonomy? >_>

A more relevant analogy would have been that I don't take it upon myself to empty a bottle of rubbing alcohol on somebody else's cut because they didn't care to clean it themselves.

But if I need someone around who doesn't have a bleeding arm, I'm not going to let someone in with a bleeding arm. Just like if I need someone who can do X DPS, I'm not going to take someone who has less than X DPS. The person with a bleeding arm can dress their wound and get better. The person not doing enough DPS can do more DPS and get better.

If it would keep those people out of DF, yes.

Good to know that you're all for regressing to 2.0 launch.

It is. Acceptable DPS is subjective. You may feel like you're carrying someone only if they're doing 200 DPS. Someone else may feel like they're carrying someone if they're doing only 900 DPS when they could be doing 1200. That's why it shouldn't be a valid reason for kicking.

Except, y'know, it already is on the basis of "differing play styles." Only difference is at the moment you can't point at someone's DPS as the reason. Or at least, you can't use actual numbers when doing so.

Which leads us back to "It doesn't matter if YOU would. It matters if anybody would."

The question isn't actually if anyone would do it, but rather how many would do it. Again, if we prohibited every feature that could lead to harassment, we would have almost no features.

And that's their own choice that they make. You aren't chosen to make the choice for them.

They've already done it. I'm not choosing for them regarding their queue time. I'm choosing for them regarding my time. Because, y'know, they have no right to waste my time any more than I have a right to waste their time. But they've already wasted their time, and I'm saving their time and mine simultaneously. So I don't really know what the heck you're going on about.

Or, option 3, you can leave the run and not force your will on someone else.

Oh, so I should sacrifice my own time by abandoning the group and not contributing what I signed on to do when I queued, thereby breaking the social contract. I should just renege on the dungeon whenever there's adversity. Instead of identifying the actual problem and rectifying it. Got it.

I'd start preforming my parties. Regardless, if someone's only autoattacking, there's problems there besides "Their DPS is too low." Not sure how many times I'll have to say this, but the biggest issue is not the people who see someone slapping themselves on follow while they don't play the game (which if they do, I'd consider that AFKing, and an auto-attack only person may be poorly botting which I'd file under cheating). The biggest issue is the people who simply see anything less than A4S-clear quality playing as being carried.

Good job only addressing the easiest target. Now how about the person parsing below the PLD or healer or LB DPS?

Never seen anybody sell carries for anything I'd use DF for. Which is to say, I don't use DF for things like EX primals or raids except possibly the 24-man ones. And why don't I? Because I'm aware that there will be people in there that are going to just be bad, and proactively exercise my options to avoid them.

See, with sentiments like that, we can make you an elitist in no time! Meanwhile, y'know, efforts to build up the playerbase. Because, y'know, trying to help people be better.

Are you the objective judge of what's reasonable?

To quote you: Ask everybody. It's called the "reasonable person standard." Get a sense of what most people consider reasonable, and use that as your standard.

I'm not. I'm telling the people who don't want to deal with random people to make premades. Some of us competent people don't really care if we take 40 minutes in Neverreap or 20. A clear's a clear.

Okay, I shouldn't have said "all." You're still advocating increasing the concentration of bad players in DF.

At which point they either learn to swim or they sink, which is just as likely to increase average skill level of DF without having some random person arbitrarily take the decision on how valuable another person's queue time was upon themselves.

At which point they have to teach themselves how to swim with no guidance, you mean. Because a chunk of people who could be helping them aren't in DF anymore. And it has nothing to do with queue time.

Ask them. And ask everybody what they think of the company, rather than asserting your own viewpoint as what their reputation is.

I'm only asserting a valid aspect of their reputation. These are things that are already said about SE. It's probably not the first thing most people think of, but some people might. But persisting in giving us tight DPS checks with no way to check our DPS will contribute to a reputation of what's basically unfairness.

Click on Settings at the top right. Go to the left under "My settings > My profile" and click "Edit Character". This gives you a list of all characters on your account. Anything in brown is displayed, anything grey is not. The one with the gold star is your "main". It's the same place you pick which jobs to display.

Didn't realize that clicking the block instead of the star would turn it off. Learn something new every day.

Of course not, if you're still taking random people that you don't know and don't really check up on beforehand, which I'd hope you would do if you were going to do anything serious where top-tier DPS really is quite important.

Or I can expect people to not join a group for something if they can't complete it. And of course, you're actually suggesting having a pool of people to choose from and never playing with anyone outside them. Which defeats the whole Massively part of MMO.

I wasn't trying to extrapolate it out to everyone. I said that the people who have significant issues can be seen without parsers. Anyone without a significant issue isn't generally worth calling out or necessarily preventing the group from clearing unless it's top-tier content, in which case I'd expect at least one person already has a parser and doesn't need a built-in one.

Except that some of the significant issues are still hard to see unless you spend an inordinate amount of time watching one person. And you're therefor putting all the burden of identifying the issues on the PC players. And it reduces the self-reliance of PS3/PS4 players. I feel like we already had this conversation.

[Aiselia]

And nobody is forcing me to stay in my home country

Nice and irrelevant analogy.

It's their fault for not exercising their option to get better.

Can you guarantee that the only people kicked out have the option to get better? Meaning no medical issues restricting them or anything like that?

Just like if I need someone who can do X DPS, I'm not going to take someone who has less than X DPS.

And that's what premaking parties is for. If you refuse to exercise this option, why do you feel you have the right to take it out on other people?

The question isn't actually if anyone would do it, but rather how many would do it.

And it'd be up to you to prove that not enough would do it to worry about it. Good luck!

Because, y'know, they have no right to waste my time

The difference is that they're not forcing you to waste your time. You can create a group of your own if you want to control how long the run will take, and you can leave the run if you don't like it. Ignoring that you can premake groups with people you know doesn't make it an invalid point.

I should sacrifice my own time by abandoning the group

What makes your time more worth it than theirs? Hint: No answer will make you not sound selfish.

Now how about the person parsing below the PLD or healer or LB DPS?

I'd live with it. I have before. But then, I don't put myself above the other person. They pay just as much as I do to play the game (probably).

Get a sense of what most people consider reasonable, and use that as your standard.

So if the majority of people in DF are underperforming and are fine with it, as some people would have you believe with how much they rage about DF, then would you accept that what you consider underperforming is reasonable and you are unreasonable in thinking anybody should be kicked for it?

The only objective "reasonable" DPS is enough to clear.

You're still advocating increasing the concentration of bad players in DF.

Which would more effectively make people pull up their socks than kicking them. If you kick them, they just think that you're a jerk. If they only get grouped with other bad players and literally cannot complete the content, they have no choice but to get better. And in the end, if they're wasting their time in the runs because they literally cannot clear them, then that's still their choice.

Because a chunk of people who could be helping them aren't in DF anymore.

Internet exists. This forum exists. If they're actually willing to want help getting better, they can either ask in the game or look at the various "guides" threads here. If they're not willing to seek out the help, odds are those people in DF wouldn't get through to them anyways.

It's probably not the first thing most people think of, but some people might.

And some people might see it as a refreshing step away from the elitist mentality of other games. Two sides of the same coin, neither particularly more valid than the other.

no way to check our DPS

They allow ACT to exist and accept that people use it. They don't owe anything more. Start complaining when they try to start tracking it and ban anyone that uses it.

And of course, you're actually suggesting having a pool of people to choose from and never playing with anyone outside them.

Do you think that any world first savage clears were done with random groups? I'm suggesting doing something that has been an accepted part of MMOs since... well, a long dang time. I didn't pug Molten Core raids back in WoW, I tell ya what.

Except that some of the significant issues are still hard to see unless you spend an inordinate amount of time watching one person.

Not really. I went through a dungeon run a couple days ago with a DRG that rarely used Heavy Thrust. Wasn't that hard to notice that the buff wasn't going on them after a quick glance at the threat meter showed them as half my BLM's threat with Quelling Strikes used.

I feel like we already had this conversation.

Yep, and I still maintain my original position that personal parsers and party parsers are two different beasts and the former has objectively less drawbacks than the latter.

[Viridiana]

Nice and irrelevant analogy.

I dunno, it seems kinda spot on to me.

Can you guarantee that the only people kicked out have the option to get better? Meaning no medical issues restricting them or anything like that?

Yes, I can guarantee that.

And that's what premaking parties is for. If you refuse to exercise this option, why do you feel you have the right to take it out on other people?

No, joining content is entering a contract with the group to do, and be able to do, enough healing/tanking/dps to clear the content. I do have the right to remove people who fail to fulfill their part of that, just as others have the right to remove me if I fail to fulfill my part.

And it'd be up to you to prove that not enough would do it to worry about it. Good luck!

We've already had this conversation. The only people remotely in position to prove that would be SE, because they're the only people who can even remotely get the information needed to assess that. Can you stop dragging our conversation in circles?

The difference is that they're not forcing you to waste your time. You can create a group of your own if you want to control how long the run will take, and you can leave the run if you don't like it. Ignoring that you can premake groups with people you know doesn't make it an invalid point.

Except that they've wasted my queue time by failing the content. I went into the content in good faith that everyone present would be able to complete it, and someone decided to waste the time of the entire party--including their own.

What makes your time more worth it than theirs? Hint: No answer will make you not sound selfish.

What makes their queue time worth more than the time of the entire party? Hint: No answer will make them not sound selfish.

I'd live with it. I have before. But then, I don't put myself above the other person. They pay just as much as I do to play the game (probably).

Maybe help them get better? Just an idea.

So if the majority of people in DF are underperforming and are fine with it, as some people would have you believe with how much they rage about DF, then would you accept that what you consider underperforming is reasonable and you are unreasonable in thinking anybody should be kicked for it?

If the majority of the playerbase actually decided that MNKs doing less DPS than PLDs was reasonable, I think I'd unsubscribe. At that point I don't think there'd be any redemption.

The only objective "reasonable" DPS is enough to clear.

To paraphrase someone: if the boss dies one second before enrage, I've done too much DPS. Right?

Which would more effectively make people pull up their socks than kicking them. If you kick them, they just think that you're a jerk. If they only get grouped with other bad players and literally cannot complete the content, they have no choice but to get better. And in the end, if they're wasting their time in the runs because they literally cannot clear them, then that's still their choice.

We've actually tested this before. It was called Steps of Faith. People didn't get better, they whined until SE nerfed the content. The good players mostly finished SoF early and left the bads in the DF to their own devices. Suddenly SoF became inordinately difficult to do because no one would improve. Then it got nerfed. Hard. Because having content that forces the lowest group of DF to actually get halfway decent proved to be bad for SE's bottom line, apparently. Which goes back to that whole reputation thing.

Internet exists. This forum exists. If they're actually willing to want help getting better, they can either ask in the game or look at the various "guides" threads here. If they're not willing to seek out the help, odds are those people in DF wouldn't get through to them anyways.

Granted, but then they're probably having to leave whatever group they're in to look up guides.

The advantage to having more competent people in DF is the increase in resources available without leaving the game. Especially since some people refuse to go outside of the game for help. They can ask FC mates, obviously, but it'd be harder to do in the middle of an instance or trial before the group just gives up.

And some people might see it as a refreshing step away from the elitist mentality of other games. Two sides of the same coin, neither particularly more valid than the other.

If this is the mentality SE wants to breed, then strict DPS checks probably aren't the way to do it.

They allow ACT to exist and accept that people use it. They don't owe anything more. Start complaining when they try to start tracking it and ban anyone that uses it.

Cool. For PC users. Get back to me when they allow PS3 to have an equal footing.

Do you think that any world first savage clears were done with random groups? I'm suggesting doing something that has been an accepted part of MMOs since... well, a long dang time. I didn't pug Molten Core raids back in WoW, I tell ya what.

I mean, maybe the Elysium and Lucrezia groups never, ever use DF to play with anyone outside their FCs. And somehow I doubt that you never played with anyone outside the 40 people in your WoW raid back in the day.

Not really. I went through a dungeon run a couple days ago with a DRG that rarely used Heavy Thrust. Wasn't that hard to notice that the buff wasn't going on them after a quick glance at the threat meter showed them as half my BLM's threat with Quelling Strikes used.

And I've had a Titan group back in the day with a MNK who was only using Demolish every time Coeurl Form came up. It's less easy to notice something like that, where all buffs and debuffs are up as appropriate, but it's still a very significant issue.

Yep, and I still maintain my original position that personal parsers and party parsers are two different beasts and the former has objectively less drawbacks than the latter.

And objectively less benefits, too. And that's even if I grant harassment as a drawback of group parsers, which I don't think it is.