The Real Problem with Parsers

[JackFross]

Hahahahahaha...No. No it doesn't. Except when it does, sometimes. But usually it doesn't.

When does it not? I can't say I've ever seen such an example. I'd like for you to provide one, since I'm legitimately curious. It would be more helpful than acting smug and pretending to know something I don't know without providing anything to back you up.

And the former is what all the guides go with, and is probably more accurate. And a difference of 1/90 will start giving you wrong numbers as soon as your damage exceeds 90 points, which was forever ago. Once you're up past 900 damage abilities, you're looking at 10 points off from expected value.

It *should* be such that you'd divide by 0.9 rather than multiply by 1.1, according to the tooltips. I had never done testing of my own to prove it, that's just the way it should work, if the tooltips are actually accurate to the way the devs set up damage calculation. This is simply because:
No Disembowel:
100% dmg v 100% resistance = 100/100 = 100% damage
Disembowel:
100% dmg v 90% resistance = 100/90 = 111.1111% damage

However, I just ran tests on it hoping to confirm the way the tooltips say it. I was proven wrong. I didn't use a parser for this, since I feel like all of this was just an attempt to bait me into doing so. I scraped the data from my combat log by hand and entered it into excel to run the calculations.

http://puu.sh/koUcA/9108110013.png

There's more data points beyond the bottom, I just can't be arsed to clip multiple images together to show all of it. Came out to a 10% buff, so I retract my statements. x:

I included there a calculation using Sunny's damage formula to get an estimated potency for Heavy Thrust. That damage formula scales potency linearly according with damage. I feel like it would be far more disparate than 0.45% if this were a thing that doesn't scale linearly. To test THAT further, I ran another test with the whole Full Thrust combo:
http://puu.sh/koVh9/8b4d231584.png

The formula being used there is:

Damage Dealt = ((Potency/100)*(WD/25+1)*(STR/9)*(DET/7290+1)*BUFFS)-1

BUFFS in this situation is a flat 1, because the dummy has nothing special on it. But, yeah. Potency is weird and totally not linear at all? I'm really really confused as to why you would think that is the case.


And, again. All of this was done without the aid of a parsing plugin/program. A parser wouldn't have even sped things up, since the battle log as I set it up for my purposes is no less easy to read than a parse would be. Also important to note re: potecy scaling.

Vorpal Thrust:
Combo: 200
Not: 100
Diff: 100
Diff/Combo = 100/200 = 50%

Full Thrust:
Combo: 360
Not: 100
Diff: 260
Diff/Combo = 260/360 = 72%

These numbers are reflected in the battle log as the % by which damage is increased due to combo potencies. Everything seems to be backing that they scale linearly, so I'm gonna need a very convincing argument to show me that I'm wrong on this.

(how is this still on topic? I'm continuing to prove that you can calculate and discover the skill floor for your class *without* the aid of a parser, so the argument that you need one to know if you are even meeting bare minimum for your class is baseless)

[Aiselia]

Well he definitely had the MIND to improve.

Maybe he thought nobody else would MIND what he was wearing.

But even then you have the off chance that players do not know their primary stats

Which is better served by saying "Hey, I noticed you had mind accessories on. Those specifically increase healing. A bard should be using Dexterity to increase their damage." And not "dude, what is the reason to use mind accessories in a bard, Votekick attempt, facepalm".

Thats why I even mentioned that this screenshot is a terrible example to prove either side on whether or not having a parser is good.

And that's the only thing I'm saying about this. It doesn't have anything to do with why a parser is or isn't needed, because a parser would change absolutely nothing about that situation. I'm not saying parsers cannot prove someone is underperforming, I'm saying that it's nowhere near necessary when someone is just literally wearing the wrong gear.

Will be a pain if he doesn't learn anything from his job.

Well, maybe you should have tried to correct him and help. Kicking him without telling him what he should be using is not going to make him get better. It's just going to make him think you're a jerk and not care what you say because he thinks you're a jerk.

other people have the right to insult you, look down on you or harass you

No they don't. That's why there's rules against it.

you have to acommodate your playstyle or join with friends.

How come other people have to accommodate you instead of you accommodating them? What's stopping you from joining with friends if you want to get through quickly because you know exactly how much DPS people are going to put out?

[Viridiana]

When does it not? I can't say I've ever seen such an example. I'd like for you to provide one, since I'm legitimately curious. It would be more helpful than acting smug and pretending to know something I don't know without providing anything to back you up.

Sure. Have this post, this post, this post and if you really want I have a spreadsheet I could upload again...

However, I just ran tests on it hoping to confirm the way the tooltips say it. I was proven wrong. I didn't use a parser for this, since I feel like all of this was just an attempt to bait me into doing so. I scraped the data from my combat log by hand and entered it into excel to run the calculations.

Not attempting to get you to use a parser (though ACT has this nifty sort feature that lets you easily find min/max damage, but I digress). Simply showing that trying to math out potencies doesn't quite tell the full story.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I wonder why using another third party program as a tool, but you manually copied the data *coughdataminingcough* and wrote the formula yourself is considered "fine". But a parser that does the exact same you do in excel automatically for you isn't - Which also saves you 90% of the time spend over manually doing things.

[bardaboo]

[QUOTE=JackFross;3342404

(how is this still on topic? I'm continuing to prove that you can calculate and discover the skill floor for your class *without* the aid of a parser, so the argument that you need one to know if you are even meeting bare minimum for your class is baseless)[/QUOTE]

Ok. Now say for example you are wondering how you did during a boss fight... maybe you missed a positional, or lagged and missed a blood for blood before a sidewinder, good luck pulling those numbers out after the dungeon is done. A number on screen would be quite amazing.I don't need to see other people's numbers to know if i did the best i could do. If I'm curious I'd ask them. Fights are messy, how about that battle litany, did it up my dps, or foe requiem... As1 Savage i have to ask my dps after every single clear on faust... frikking annoying.

[Aiselia]

Ok. Now say for example you are wondering how you did during a boss fight... maybe you missed a positional, or lagged and missed a blood for blood before a sidewinder, good luck pulling those numbers out after the dungeon is done. A number on screen would be quite amazing.I don't need to see other people's numbers to know if i did the best i could do. If I'm curious I'd ask them. Fights are messy, how about that battle litany, did it up my dps, or foe requiem... As1 Savage i have to ask my dps after every single clear on faust... frikking annoying.

Well, that's why they already said this several pages ago:

On the one hand, we do need an official way of measuring DPS so players who don't have access to parsing programs can self-evaluate and improve. This is good.

[JackFross]

Sure. Have this post, this post, this post and if you really want I have a spreadsheet I could upload again...

Well, I really hope you aren't serious...

http://puu.sh/kpfn4/3a320509a3.png

... because if you're going to try and tell me that the first link proves that there is anything other than a linear correspondence with potencies, I really don't know what to tell you. The other links all expound on the same data. Like. If you're saying one is 1% off of being exactly the correct proportion, you're making mountains out of molehills.

//Yeah, those points don't all spit out exactly the same values and the variance isn't 0, but the general trend is linear, regardless. The exact linear correspondence isn't necessarily an easy thing to find, but to openly say "Potencies sometimes aren't linear" and then throw data in my face that is essentially linear feels like you're insulting my intelligence or something.

I wonder why using another third party program as a tool, but you manually copied the data *coughdataminingcough* and wrote the formula yourself is considered "fine". But a parser that does the exact same you do in excel automatically for you isn't - Which also saves you 90% of the time spend over manually doing things.

Because I'm using it to make calculations, I'm not having it read through FFXIV's files automatically to scrape and compile data for me. I really don't feel like digging through the ToS to find the exact line that prohibits datamining for you.

Though, again. Parsing programs aren't *technically* outlawed, since the GMs (generally) won't care unless you use the data they give you to harass other players.

[Clarkamite]

I'm gonna have to ask, what is your point with you explaining how you're calculating potencies? I hope you don't think I mean that in a condescending way, I'm just confused by what that adds to the conversation. Admittedly, while I've been a part of this discussion from the beginning, I don't check back every day. I just feel like showing how you can mathematically calculate a number value that doesn't actually translate directly to what a DPS meter would say for a given fight other than perhaps a dummy fight, is not a great argument against parsing.

Not even saying you're on the side of keeping parsers out of PS players hands. I can see you did say that tool would be useful earlier on, I'm just wondering what the goal is with calculating potencies in excel and then showing us that here. To me it means, "This is the amount of potency your job potentially has if it executes all of it's abilities in correct fashion."

Basically potency =/= DPS and I'm not even sure showing that you can go math whiz with excel and calculate that number gets you in the argument here. There's not a lot of people out there who are interested in knowing their DPS for a fight who are going to go into the game, smack a dummy around for awhile, read the log and find the numbers (minus dots), pop all that into excel, find that number and then somehow apply that to a fight they're interested in improving on. Not me anyways. Taking calculus was enough. When I want to know my numbers for a fight I'd rather just run a program to tell me a number that actually has a value that means something in the scope of an encounter.

[JackFross]

The point has been that you don't need a parser to figure out the ideal way to play your class. You only need one to confirm that you're doing so. Even still, I don't think a parser would help you figure out the ideal way to play the class. Without at least a basic idea of the math behind your class, you'll always be shy of playing it "properly" as the current meta dictates. You either get that math basis by calculating yourself (which I'm showing is "easy" to do) or by looking up a guide whose author has already done that legwork for you.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Because I'm using it to make calculations, I'm not having it read through FFXIV's files automatically to scrape and compile data for me. I really don't feel like digging through the ToS to find the exact line that prohibits datamining for you.

Though, again. Parsing programs aren't *technically* outlawed, since the GMs (generally) won't care unless you use the data they give you to harass other players.

Parsers make calculations too. Probably the same ones you have when using Rxcel. Excel isn't different from parsers is the point I'm making here. But using excel over parsers just makes it unnecessary hard and time consuming on whoever decides to use that. By that sense, if you really wanted to, you could harass others using excel. Simply takes longer and more effort.