The Real Problem with Parsers

[Dante_V]

"The real problem with parsers"
Is that square hasn't put them in the game yet.

/thread

>_>

[Zetor]

Yea, public DPS parsers are kinda worthless in content that puts people of wildly different ilevels (and thus damage potential) together. I'm not sure if it's true for ffxiv, but damage scaling from gear is both non-linear *and* tends to be different across classes in other games, so you could only compare that guy in your pug to "another ilevel 157 dragoon". Of course there are those who do insanely low damage for whatever reason, but that tends to come with long periods of doing nothing, completely ignoring mechanics, or just using abilities in an order that doesn't make sense. Don't need a parser to notice that! Not to mention that even in other games, I prefer looking at parser stats like "how many times player x screwed up / took avoidable damage due to mechanics" or "how many times they have successfully interrupted enemy abilities".

Now for serious-business ilevel-synced content (or content where everyone has similar gear levels) such as savage raids, FFXIV equivalent of Challenge Modes (maybe synced ARR raids / EX?), etc, DPS parsers are invaluable...

[JackFross]

I ran tests in A3 normal before. I can do around 1100-ish on a nice, clean clear on my DRG with my current gear. With full law gear (+190 belt, 190 ring) and the 180 spear, I did around 850. The vast majority of pug-goons in DF do sub-800. Very rarely will I see one i195+ who will crest 900. Even rarer was the one time I encountered a DRG with gear about on par with mine (my sheet said his was a handful above me in weight) who ended ~50 below me (that was the time I was GOING to test Law gear but couldn't turn down a challenge).

But like.

I'm of the firm, sturdy position that

Who cares if someone is doing sub-optimal dps if you have enough raid dps to clear the content? Stop worrying about other people being bads and just focus on playing the game the way you have the most fun. If you like big numbers like me, try to optimize. If you don't care and want to throw Piercing Talon at the boss because you like the animation, go for it. I sometimes try to offer advice to dragoons in dungeon runs who don't use Heavy Thrust or are doing other silly things, and they all become either hostile, obstinate, or just tell me to shut up and do my job, because I'm not a dragoon.

So.

Stop telling other people how to play, basically. Personal parsers on training dummies would be cool. I'd be down for that. But I'd never want to see active parsers in-game during instances.


People who kick people from pug groups in trash content that doesn't matter (dungeons, 24-man raids, Alex normal, any old level 50 content) because of their suboptimal dps are assholes.

Bottom line. :T

[DGladius]

Who cares if someone is doing sub-optimal dps if you have enough raid dps to clear the content? Stop worrying about other people being bads and just focus on playing the game the way you have the most fun.

The other members of the party should not have to tolerate people who are going to be lazy and play sub-optimally no matter what content. If you're going to join in a group then put in your best effort to get things done just like how you want others to put in their fair share of work.

[Kuroyasha]

Snip

If one doesn't care and are doing dps so bad that dps checks on the easier content aren't passed unless carried, and on top of that they say something like "dont tell me how to play" when confronted, then they need to play single player games where they can do whatever whenever whereever(insert shakira). Or craft.

I can tolerate sub-optimal (realistically relatively few are going to be doing optimal) but I can't take deliberately bad.

[JackFross]

The other members of the party should not have to tolerate people who are going to be lazy and play sub-optimally no matter what content. If you're going to join in a group then put in your best effort to get things done just like how you want others to put in their fair share of work.

Laziness is one thing. I can't stand people who say "I wasn't trying" when you point out how low their numbers were. It's either an excuse because they don't wanna admit they're not good or it's them admitting that they don't care about anyone else's time. Yeah. I get pissed at that, too.

But I've run with players who do their best, try really hard, and are still far below the bars that I set with the tests I ran. Dragoons in 190+ parsing sub-800 where I can do over 800 in 180. I don't give them shit or tell them to get good. I play my paladin, run Sword Oath, and do my job and have a blast playing with them because they're all fun people who are having fun playing a video game together with other people who are having fun playing a video game.

That's my argument.

It's a game. It's designed for people to have fun. If you kill the boss, why are you still going to be an ass to the person who did 50% what they could have done? Who are you to sit there on your high horse and say that person ISN'T doing their best? What if their best isn't YOUR best and you're just projecting, expecting them to put up what YOU can do simply because, hey, it's possible?

If one doesn't care and are doing dps so bad that dps checks on the easier content aren't passed unless carried, and on top of that they say something like "dont tell me how to play" when confronted, then they need to play single player games where they can do whatever whenever whereever(insert shakira). Or craft.

I can tolerate sub-optimal (realistically relatively few are going to be doing optimal) but I can't take deliberately bad.

Those people really annoy me, too. The people who are bad and then refuse all sorts of criticism really annoy me.




Excuse my language as I make more general points below, please.


For fuck's sake. Stop worrying about everyone else. You're not raiding Alexander Savage with these people. None of the content you run in Duty Finder requires your party to pump out 1000-1500 dps (each) against the bosses. Why is everyone so concerned with what other people do?

It's something that really irks me about a lot of people. The elitist mentality of "You need to be X good or else fuck off" is really rude, really off-putting, and is more likely to cause a player to get pissy and report you than it is to make that player become introspective and attempt to improve how they play the game. Because. They should. Since YOU NOT THEM were the asshole.

But that's... really the issue. Everyone sits here on their high horse with parse numbers and gets offended when someone else is simply not good at their class or even worse still learning their class OR... AND THIS IS THE WORST ONE OF ALL, APPARENTLY: People are pissed off that someone enjoys the game in a way other than maximizing every class they play at all times in all content.



I'll reiterate, since everyone seems to have skipped over the actual point I'm getting to in order to cherrypick my arguments:

This is a video game. Stop being an asshole and let people play the way that they get the most enjoyment out of it. The worst thing that's gonna happen to you due to the dps being bad is it'll take an extra 1-2 minutes of your time to get a clear. Seriously take a step back and assess yourselves. Is that really THAT big of an issue to outwardly insult people and make them feel like shit? Because you spent extra time dealing with an instance than you would have if you just teamed up with your elite friends?

Like. Why do you have to be a dick? Honestly, what does it get for you? What does it do for you that it's so important you tell someone how shit they are?

[Archaell]

Yea, public DPS parsers are kinda worthless in content that puts people of wildly different ilevels...

That's exactly why DF parsers should not be exact and about who is doing how much damage, but only show who is over/underperforming, which would have to be calculated based on their item level, job and specific instance/encounter. Such basic indicator of performance would help new players a lot - especially it would help new tanks and healers, who have no idea how dps jobs should be played. When the tank or healer are underperforming you can see it clear as the day, so some sort of parser is needed to make things fair - Nothing like getting blamed for healing, when story mode garuda is almost one shotting undergeared tank, by monk who does not care enough to move for positionals... now when I think of it, there should also be item level indicator.

[sackm]

1-2 extra minutes? try 10-20 in dungeons where the dps are doing sub 300 dps in 50+ dungeons and im the top dps as a pld in sword oath. no one, in any 50+ dungeon should be parsing under 300 on a boss fight. yet a large % of players i come across are (50%?). there needs to be some standard to hold people accountable to.

[Arkenne]

1-2 extra minutes? try 10-20 in dungeons where the dps are doing sub 300 dps in 50+ dungeons and im the top dps as a pld in sword oath. no one, in any 50+ dungeon should be parsing under 300 on a boss fight. yet a large % of players i come across are (50%?). there needs to be some standard to hold people accountable to.

in 60s yea, but in 50s the synch down do make 300 an average (good).

[Waliel]

in 60s yea, but in 50s the synch down do make 300 an average (good).

300 DPS at 50 sync is pretty bad. Not horrible, but bad.