The Real Problem with Parsers

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Did you miss the "optional sharing" part at the end? Meaning people have the choice whether or not others see it? Meaning if you wipe purely because of a DPS check, asking for shares of parses would cover that?

Or to respond to the tank/healers, if the tank is dropping like a rock, ask for their share for cooldown uses, or if the tank is doing fine but not getting heals, ask for the healing share.

If somebody refuses to share, it suggests that they recognize that they may have issues but will refuse to take your help into consideration because they won't help you help them. That saves you time talking to a wall. And, I mean, if three out of four DPS share and they're all fine, and the fourth refuses to share, it's a pretty safe bet where the problem lies. If they're capable of recognizing that they're underperforming and that they're embarrassed to share because of that, then a stranger telling them they're bad isn't going to do anything more helpful.

And this brings us back to the situation where the community has to cater to the specific "jerk" who don't want to improve. So what is the added value of having optional sharing or hiding feature? If they have nothing to hide, they wouldn't be afraid to share. If they're afraid to share for people to find out but don't want to improve, you'd get that particular jerk you mentioned yourself. If he or she doesn't get kicked for weighing the party down, sharing or not sharing the data, this brings us back to the whole "catering to the jerk" issue.

It doesn't suggest anything what a particular person wants. They could simply not be aware of such feature and get kicked because the party thinks he/she's hiding something. If anything, personal parsers would cause far more problems than public parsers:
Hiding your data when requested
Fabricating your data

[Malevicton]

idk man, some people think that not making it literally impossible is a bit of a low standard. That's fine for you to follow in your groups, but I don't think it's fair to apply that to everyone.

Heck in a dungeon both dps can literally afk the entire thing and it's still possible to clear. It'll just take a while.

[Aiselia]

idk man, some people think that not making it literally impossible is a bit of a low standard. That's fine for you to follow in your groups, but I don't think it's fair to apply that to everyone.

Some people think that taking a half hour in a dungeon is intolerable. That's fine for them to follow in their premade groups, but I don't think it's fair to apply that to everyone.

Heck in a dungeon both dps can literally afk the entire thing and it's still possible to clear. It'll just take a while.

And AFK is in the list of kick reasons.

I am able to complete the run if both dps go afk at the start of the dungeon and the healer is good, should I also not kick the dps in that situation?

And AFK is in the list of kick reasons.

Like I stated before, if the tank cannot for the life of them hold agro, for some reason refuse to use tank stance and are doing practically nothing but are still running in and just spamming the 1 key, do you kick him?

I seem to recall having already covered this.

This exactly would create the kind of jerk you're so "anti-jerk" about, though?

Removing someone from a run for making it impossible to clear isn't the same kind of thing I'm anti-jerk about.

I don't believe I've discussed with you about specific uses of parsers for that kind of scenario with you.

Probably not. But you seem to be fine with going through my older posts anyways, so I assumed you'd have come across it.

why would the community need to cater for it and not get a tool for the better end of the spectrum?

The question really is why open the door when there's an acceptable way around opening it?

What if every DPS is hiding theirs? Or what if two are hiding theirs? Do you kick whoever's not sharing?

Look at threat meter to compare the people who are sharing to those who aren't.
If nobody's willing to share at all, vote abandon. If they're not willing to help solve the problem, then being able to default see their numbers won't solve it either.

If three out of 4 DPS shares their number, then why would there be a need to hide it if others can conclude you're the dead weight of the party while the other 3 are doing well?

Embarrassment, fear of harassment.

What's stopping people from kicking them before asking?

Nothing. With party parsers, what's stopping people from kicking without offering help?

I have no idea how Square-Enix codes things, but from what I'm guessing about their logic about the TP bar:
They're sending a lot of data in a single object to each user every set amount of time per second (or once per second? No idea). While the user client can calculate the TP based on the actions players do, it wouldn't make sense for TP to be calculated locally, rather than being retrieved. Or at least, I wouldn't program it myself where you send 99% of related data through one object and send the remaining 1% through another.

Which confuses me because there wasn't any need to remove the party bonus in that case (if the removal was related to the TP bars, maybe just a coincidence) because the party bonus wouldn't be updated at all throughout a run short of people being kicked/leaving and replaced.

If they're not related, then whatever, maybe they just decided that party bonus wasn't really important enough to be seen (true, but besides the point).
If they are related, that suggests actual display/UI real estate issues, rather than necessarily having to do with what data is actually being sent when.

If the latter is the issue, a party-wide visible parse during combat would be a bigger issue than a personal one.

Whoever mods (or hacks) their parser to fabricate anything wouldn't cause any problems.

If someone's going to the difficulty to mod their client to lie about a parse, you'd think they'd go through the difficulty to learn to play.

[Malevicton]

Some people think that taking a half hour in a dungeon is intolerable. That's fine for them to follow in their premade groups, but I don't think it's fair to apply that to everyone.

If only there were a middle ground, eh?

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Some people think that taking a half hour in a dungeon is intolerable.

I saw one person mentioning that back at page 36, 37 or 38. Why are the rest of us clumped together again?

[Aiselia]

I saw one person mentioning that back at page 36, 37 or 38. Why are the rest of us clumped together again?

I didn't mention the rest of you. I said some people. If you're not one of those people, I didn't say anything about you.

When you see me say "everyone", then you can accuse me of clumping people together.

So is harassment, and walking into a dungeon and purposefully making it slow by only auto-attacking or just spamming your 1 key over and over is a form of that.

Yep, and I believe I already went over that I'm not including people who just go in and auto-attack or only spam one attack in who shouldn't be kicked. Something about potentially being AFK during fights or botting, I believe, both of which are reasons.

What if that's what the tank thinks is right, what if he got to 60 fate grinding, somehow miraculously got through all the story dungeons and is still doing this crap.

Then you can try to help him and if he doesn't listen, do whatever. Tanks and DPS are different situations, after all.

[Gorlioliolio]

Yep, and I believe I already went over that I'm not including people who just go in and auto-attack or only spam one attack in who shouldn't be kicked. Something about potentially being AFK during fights or botting, I believe, both of which are reasons.

Then you can try to help him and if he doesn't listen, do whatever. Tanks and DPS are different situations, after all.

How do you know if the one person is just spamming 1 button vs using their full skill set without something obvious like blood of the dragon, or astral fire? Yes they will be lower on the agro meters but any trash pull I generally don't see dps above 5% of my agro anyways from all the aoe spam I do. Oh My God ..... Could there be a tool to help identify this?

And it is the exact same situation, you can still clear, the tank isn't afk, there is no boot option for bad tanking.

[Gorlioliolio]

And AFK is in the list of kick reasons.

So is harassment, and walking into a dungeon and purposefully making it slow by only auto-attacking or just spamming your 1 key over and over is a form of that.

Like I stated before, if the tank cannot for the life of them hold agro, for some reason refuse to use tank stance and are doing practically nothing but are still running in and just spamming the 1 key, do you kick him?

I seem to recall having already covered this.

One time was in the form of an afk tank, the other you responded with saying no one is advocating not kicking a dps for using auto attack but for instead kicking them for doing what they think is right while it may not be up to your standards.

What if that's what the tank thinks is right, what if he got to 60 fate grinding, somehow miraculously got through all the story dungeons and is still doing this crap.

I have carried multiple tanks through things when I just want to see how good I am, and kicked them sometimes as well when I'm not in the mood for it as I'm sure other people have.

[Cynfael]

This has become an amazingly stupid and bloated thread. It shouldn't take 40+ pages of quote wars to accept the following:

- Use of DF obligates no one to accept their time being wasted by terrible players who do not act on reasonable criticism.
- Willfully bad players are beyond outside help and are likely to be excluded often, parser or no.
- Parsers can (and already do) help many players who want to improve.
- Parsers do not turn players toxic. The fact that you will eventually encounter a toxic player who parses is no more significant than the "Hitler Ate Sugar" fallacy.

[Slaine77]

I could really careless how long it takes to do a DF, or how much more dps I do then the next person. Trying to be an elitist on a game such as this is laughable. Play the game to have fun, enjoy the random people you play with in a DF, help them if needed. This idea of sprinting to the end and walking over others to do it is retarded. Run your DF with your static if you want to do them quickly. As a dps wating 15+ mins to a que, why even start an argument? Just do your job the best you can and understanding of others about it. At any rate I think everything has been said in the 49 pages of post. Just keep in mind to be an asshole or intolerant to others on this type of game is silly.