The Real Problem with Parsers

[DestinovaTrueblade]

SE's paternalistic stance on this matter really annoys me, especially because I'm a ps player and I can't use a very usefull tool to get better. Parsers are a necessity given how this game is designed and this is a fact. Leaving a relevant part of the player base having to rely on pc gamers only because of possible abuse of a tool is just dumb. Let people decide for themselves. Introduce an official parser and let players decide in their settings if they want the other party members to know how they're performing and allow people to create preformed parties with the requirement that personal dps will be shown.

I agree with this completely, not having an official parser that's useful for everyone is unfair. Especially when the issue of harassment could be solved with a simple privacy setting that allows the players to decide whether they want to show their dps to their party or not.

[Sidra]

Honestly, man - you have not given a single drawback of a group parser. Not one. You have given a ton of player's negative reactions towards other players based on their perception of a player performing badly. That's not a feature of the parser.

[Isala]

It will never cease to amaze me, the lengths someone will go to defend their "right" to suck at a game. It's quite astounding, because if they'd put in as much effort learning how to play, they wouldn't have to defend their inability to play. You want us to make our own groups to ensure that the runs don't suck? Well guess what. We are. Why do you think there's such a long wait as DPS? I'd rather wait for my friends to be online, than carry some miserable, useless slime, who can't even spell DPS, and refuses to get better, because it's his $15. You want to suck, you do it on your own damn time. Go fail a quest or something, because you can't play the game well enough to survive simple content. Don't join a party, and waste our $45, or $105, because there's nothing stopping you from being terrible. It's just common courtesy. When joining a group, you should at least try to perform well enough to help the group. Do you do projects at work with other people, and do absolutely no work too? Because there's nothing stopping you from being a complete failure? Though, I guess that analogy falls apart, because people do that all the damn time too. God forbid anyone actually try to do anything anymore. Not when they could just have everyone carry them through everything.

[Aiselia]

I dunno, it seems kinda spot on to me.

Only if you think that living conditions of an entire country are analogous to a dungeon in a video game taking 20 more minutes.

Yes, I can guarantee that.

So you speak for absolutely everybody in the game that everyone knows the real life details of everybody else and will accept lower DPS coming from someone who has, say, an injured nerve in their hand which prevents certain quick movements?

No, joining content is entering a contract with the group to do, and be able to do, enough healing/tanking/dps to clear the content.

And when you can clear the content but it will just take 20 minutes more, that's acceptable for every person in the game?

Can you stop dragging our conversation in circles?

I'm not. If the only people in a position to prove your claim are SE, and they happen to disagree with your claim, why are you still claiming it? You shouldn't make claims that you can't personally prove and rely on your opponent to prove. (And don't forget, I'm not your opponent because I don't make the decision of whether SE adds a parser or not.)

I went into the content in good faith that everyone present would be able to complete it

And if you were proven wrong, then that should have taught you a valuable lesson that premaking parties is a lot safer.

What makes their queue time worth more than the time of the entire party?

The fact that the entire party had the option to not queue into duty finder and get them.

Maybe help them get better? Just an idea.

If they really wanted to get better, they clearly have the internet and can look up even basic guides on their class.

To paraphrase someone: if the boss dies one second before enrage, I've done too much DPS. Right?

I'm not entirely sure how that's supposed to make sense. But if it's cleared, it's cleared.

It was called Steps of Faith.

Which, in my experience, had less to do with not being good DPS and more to do with not doing mechanics, be it missing DKs, ignoring cannons, or whatever.

Granted, but then they're probably having to leave whatever group they're in to look up guides.

They could do it between groups or in their 30 minute queues. :P I doubt they'll always be in a dungeon and once they're out after failing they completely forget that they failed and requeue. And, I mean, if they refuse to go outside the game to figure out how to play, I don't hold out much hope that they'd listen to a complete stranger judging them in the middle of a dungeon run.

If this is the mentality SE wants to breed, then strict DPS checks probably aren't the way to do it.

Which I've honestly yet to see outside things I wouldn't queue randomly for. And, I mean, if the mentality of "DPS MUST BE THIS HIGH TO RIDE" is contained only in those high end things that actually do require strict DPS checks, that's different from if (and when) it (inevitably) spills into things that don't require strict DPS checks at all just because it may take a few more minutes to get through.

Get back to me when they allow PS3 to have an equal footing.

Are there any serious raid groups that all play on PS3?

And somehow I doubt that you never played with anyone outside the 40 people in your WoW raid back in the day.

Actually, I rarely did. With 40 people in a raid group, there's usually 4 others that wouldn't mind doing other dungeons during down time.

It's less easy to notice something like that, where all buffs and debuffs are up as appropriate, but it's still a very significant issue.

And did you clear it? And if not, was it entirely due to his less DPS?

And that's even if I grant harassment as a drawback of group parsers, which I don't think it is.

Doesn't matter if you do or not. It matters if SE does.

It will never cease to amaze me, the lengths someone will go to defend their "right" to suck at a game.

So... you're being another case of why they shouldn't officially add group parsers? I mean, if you're going to harass someone about their DPS when you're not even in a group with them, you clearly couldn't handle actually being in a group with someone with low DPS.

[Isala]

So... you're being another case of why they shouldn't officially add group parsers? I mean, if you're going to harass someone about their DPS when you're not even in a group with them, you clearly couldn't handle actually being in a group with someone with low DPS.

Buddy, I've been in groups that had such low DPS, they couldn't actually beat Nidhogg in the Aery. I've been in groups with such low DPS, they died to the Demon Walls in AK hard. I've died to Odin repeatedly, with 10% HP left. I've seen the enrage in A1 more times than I'd care to admit to. I have had groups with such horrible DPS, the healers and tank were outDPSing all of them. So don't you dare tell me I can't handle actually being in a group with someone with low DPS, because I have seen the absolute worst players in this game. Maybe, if we actually had a tool to let them know how terrible they were doing, they might be able to improve themselves. But instead, I got to waste hours of my time, failing to content that shouldn't even be considered hard, because nobody wants to take the personal responsibility to actually play right.

[Cynfael]

Buddy, I've been in groups that had such low DPS, they couldn't actually beat Nidhogg in the Aery. I've been in groups with such low DPS, they died to the Demon Walls in AK hard. I've died to Odin repeatedly, with 10% HP left. I've seen the enrage in A1 more times than I'd care to admit to. I have had groups with such horrible DPS, the healers and tank were outDPSing all of them. So don't you dare tell me I can't handle actually being in a group with someone with low DPS, because I have seen the absolute worst players in this game. Maybe, if we actually had a tool to let them know how terrible they were doing, they might be able to improve themselves. But instead, I got to waste hours of my time, failing to content that shouldn't even be considered hard, because nobody wants to take the personal responsibility to actually play right.

I'm in complete agreement.

As has been said many times before, there are a lot of players who don't religiously follow forums or look up a wealth of meta-game information, but who might be persuaded to get a clue if an in-game tool (rather than an irate player) gave them the notion that they were doing something very wrong.

I'm not talking about the people who more or less do what's expected of them even if it's not always optimal; this is more about the legit garbage-tier players who aren't even aware that their lack of skill is seriously inconveniencing others.

Someone's right to be terrible at the game extends about as far as it begins to cause others to have a similarly miserable experience, IMO.

[Malevicton]

I'm in complete agreement.

As has been said many times before, there are a lot of players who don't religiously follow forums or look up a wealth of meta-game information, but who might be persuaded to get a clue if an in-game tool (rather than an irate player) gave them the notion that they were doing something very wrong.

I'm not talking about the people who more or less do what's expected of them even if it's not always optimal; this is more about the legit garbage-tier players who aren't even aware that their lack of skill is seriously inconveniencing others.

Someone's right to be terrible at the game extends about as far as it begins to cause others to have a similarly miserable experience, IMO.

Just gonna piggyback off this post a bit cause it brings up a good point I'd like to expand on a bit; I wanna point out that when people refer to terrible dps, it's not usually someone who hasn't scoured for the latest and greatest meta info. If you're pulling like 700-900dps then most people are gonna be chill with you. You won't impress anyone, but you won't piss anyone off either. We're usually talking about the mute bards, the 350dps drg, the ice mages, etc. Idk everyone else's experiences with df, but mine are pretty much this: http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png all the time and it gets annoying.

If you're a good player and you use df, then yeah you have a responsibility to do the best you can with whatever group gets formed. But why does that only ever seem to apply to the good players? Bad players get a pass every time. Bad players have the same social responsibility to at least attempt to not be awful, to not actively be a detriment to their group.

[Viridiana]

Only if you think that living conditions of an entire country are analogous to a dungeon in a video game taking 20 more minutes.

They are analogous, in that it's possible to use one as an analogy for the other.

So you speak for absolutely everybody in the game that everyone knows the real life details of everybody else and will accept lower DPS coming from someone who has, say, an injured nerve in their hand which prevents certain quick movements?

I would call this shifting goal posts, but it's more like you tried to move the game into another stadium. You originally asked if I can guarantee that everyone kicked has the potential to improve. I can guarantee that, because if absolutely nothing else, the gear treadmill will go on, and those people I guarantee can get better gear to try again later, which will improve their output even if they perform to exactly the same level.

And when you can clear the content but it will just take 20 minutes more, that's acceptable for every person in the game?

I'm not even sure what you're arguing against here. >_>

I'm not. If the only people in a position to prove your claim are SE, and they happen to disagree with your claim, why are you still claiming it? You shouldn't make claims that you can't personally prove and rely on your opponent to prove.

Because at the moment they've asserted it without establishing their criteria, which makes it a worthless assertion. As it stands, they've basically said, "We're worried about people harassing others if we enable a parser." But they haven't even asserted a rough estimate of how many people would harass others with a parser, much less how much of an increase that would be over the current state. If they were genuinely concerned that parsers inevitably lead to harassment, they'd be cracking down on all parser users because those people would inevitably be harassing people. Clearly then, we can all (including SE) agree that parsers do not inevitably lead to harassment. Harassment and parsing are two separate issues, completely able to arise independently.

Meanwhile, one of my FC mates earlier today was actually judged for being an Au Ra, because apparently fantastic racism is starting to spill over into real life, or something. Yet no one would suggest getting rid of races in the game, right? Fact is we don't need parsers to be jerks to each other, the monkeys will just be throwing numbers instead of offal.

And if you were proven wrong, then that should have taught you a valuable lesson that premaking parties is a lot safer.

Because if I get a single counter-example, I should immediately give up on the whole enterprise? If a bank has a single loan get skipped out on, they should stop handing out loans?

I mean, I hate to keep bringing up real world arguments, but your logic is escaping me. You seem to be saying "Don't hold the bad guys accountable for their actions, just stop trusting anybody!" I guess I could go through life extending trust only with extreme caution and letting very few people into my inner circle. But that seems much less like living.

The fact that the entire party had the option to not queue into duty finder and get them.

I…don't even know what you're trying to say here. The queue time of one person is worth more than the time of the entire rest of the party because the entire party had the option not to queue into DF and get that person. That's what you just said. I'm really struggling to find the logic here.

If they really wanted to get better, they clearly have the internet and can look up even basic guides on their class.

Some people are extremely averse to going outside the game for help.

I'm not entirely sure how that's supposed to make sense. But if it's cleared, it's cleared.

According to you, clearing just as the boss enrages is the only objectively reasonable amount of DPS to require. So we should never expect anyone to push harder than that, right? Because if we expect people to clear things any faster than just as the boss enrages, we're being objectively unreasonable. In the spirit of that, if it appears the boss will die too soon before enraging, I'm going to sheathe my weapons and go stand in the corner from now on. Because if anyone expects any more than that from me, they're being unreasonable, according to you. >_>

Which, in my experience, had less to do with not being good DPS and more to do with not doing mechanics, be it missing DKs, ignoring cannons, or whatever.

Which all fall under doing DPS. The only aspect of that which wouldn't fall under DPS would be the tanks gathering mobs under Vishap's neck for maximum cannon damage. Nearly every other way that it commonly failed was the result of a DPS failure.

And, I mean, if they refuse to go outside the game to figure out how to play, I don't hold out much hope that they'd listen to a complete stranger judging them in the middle of a dungeon run.

Ya never know. People can be really weird.

Which I've honestly yet to see outside things I wouldn't queue randomly for. And, I mean, if the mentality of "DPS MUST BE THIS HIGH TO RIDE" is contained only in those high end things that actually do require strict DPS checks, that's different from if (and when) it (inevitably) spills into things that don't require strict DPS checks at all just because it may take a few more minutes to get through.

Did you ever queue original Amdapour Keep? Before they nerfed Demon Wall because so many people couldn't kill it, I mean. Or Ifrit Hard without a caster LB, when people actually had to put out some DPS in order to kill nails on time? Or Titan Hard in the first month or two, when the heart phase was nerve wracking for a lot of groups?

Are there any serious raid groups that all play on PS3?

How serious is "serious"? I recall at least one FC whose every player was on PS3/PS4; if they have an FC raid group, that would be a yes.

And did you clear it? And if not, was it entirely due to his less DPS?

No, we didn't clear it because we couldn't pass the heart phase because we didn't have enough DPS. This was like a year and a half ago, so I can't recall with certainty if there were any other issues, but considering I was bothered enough by his DPS to dig into parser records to figure out what was going on, I'm reasonably sure there wasn't a more obvious issue contributing to our failure.

Doesn't matter if you do or not. It matters if SE does.

But what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. There would need to be evidence that adding a parser meaningfully impacts the number of actual (versus reported) harassment cases. And since committing harassment seems to be corellated much more strongly to being a jerk than to running a parser, that's gonna be a tough sell. I'm totally willing to be proven wrong, but the only people in a position to do so are also unwilling to do so.

[Aiselia]

it's possible to use one as an analogy for the other.

You can use pretty much anything as an analogy for anything else if you don't care if it's valid.

You originally asked if I can guarantee that everyone kicked has the potential to improve.

I then immediately qualified that with "Meaning no medical issues restricting them or anything like that?" You either missed that or chose to ignore it intentionally, neither of which does you any favours.

the gear treadmill will go on

Which will be irrelevant to anybody who gets repeatedly kicked from content for not doing enough DPS because they won't be able to get that gear. And, in fact, the problem will get comparatively worse as the people who DO get the higher end gear will increase their expectations of DPS to match because the higher gear increases everybody's. If someone doesn't accept 500 DPS now, they're not going to accept 550 DPS at i220.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing against here.

Then scroll back and look at what you said? It seems pretty straightforward to me. You said that joining a group is entering a contract to be able to do enough tanking/healing/DPS to clear it. So then as long as you can clear it, they're holding up their side, right? Even if the dungeon takes another 20 minutes or even another hour, if the content gets cleared, they are holding up their side of the contract?

But they haven't even asserted a rough estimate of how many people would harass others with a parser, much less how much of an increase that would be over the current state.

The problem with your thinking is that you think they owe you that. They don't. If I like to have my door locked because I'm afraid of people walking into my house and robbing me, I don't need to assert a rough estimate of how many people might rob me. Instead, the person trying to convince me to leave my door unlocked has to prove to me that I won't get robbed.

If their argument is then that "Yeah, you might get robbed, but those people might get caught and go to jail so that would clean up the streets," well, that's working even worse.

they'd be cracking down on all parser users because those people would inevitably be harassing people.

You're blatantly ignoring an important part, though, and that's their current policy regarding TALKING about the parsers. Yes, people are using parsers in-game now. But they're not allowed to call someone out on their DPS with it. If they put parsers officially into the game, then in order to maintain their CURRENT state, they'd have to continue to take the stance that you're not allowed to bring anybody else's DPS up, which would, of course, defeat what everyone seems to want. And remember, if their stance right now is "We won't outright stop you from using them, but we don't want you bringing it up to anyone", why do you think people going "Oh yeah, we'd totally call people out" would help move them from that stance?

This goes back to the whole "estimate" thing. Why should they give you an estimate of how many people would call others out on their DPS when you have a thread full of people here wanting desperately to call people out on their DPS?

Because if I get a single counter-example,

Is it only one time? If so, clearly this isn't an important problem.

I should immediately give up on the whole enterprise?

Didn't say that. Just that if you continue to make the conscious decision to not premake parties, that's your choice, not anybody else's.

If a bank has a single loan get skipped out on, they should stop handing out loans?

If people abuse banks, banks create policies to crack down on abuse. They exercise their options. Your analogy works against you.

You seem to be saying "Don't hold the bad guys accountable for their actions, just stop trusting anybody!"

Except what I'm actually saying is that you have options and it's nobody's choice but your own to not use those options.

Some people are extremely averse to going outside the game for help.

And some people are extremely averse to being spoken to in-game. What's your point?

According to you, clearing just as the boss enrages is the only objectively reasonable amount of DPS to require.

If you cleared it, you cleared it. Anything faster than that is obviously better, but not required.

Which all fall under doing DPS.

I'd consider it more under mechanics and teamwork since the DPS aren't the only ones that can use the cannons and DK. As well, having a parser isn't going to tell you anything useful if people aren't shooting cannons.

Did you ever queue original Amdapour Keep? Before they nerfed Demon Wall because so many people couldn't kill it, I mean. Or Ifrit Hard without a caster LB, when people actually had to put out some DPS in order to kill nails on time? Or Titan Hard in the first month or two, when the heart phase was nerve wracking for a lot of groups?

Sorry, how are these relevant to the state of the game now? Please try to keep your arguments centered on a time period that matters.

I recall at least one FC whose every player was on PS3/PS4; if they have an FC raid group, that would be a yes.

If the answer really is yes, that there are raid groups that clear, say, Savage content where everyone's on a PS3, then doesn't that mean that parsers aren't necessary for success? I mean, clearly those raid groups won't have a parser, but if they're clearing it, clearly they've figured out how to deal with that.

I can't recall with certainty if there were any other issues

Then your story is not very good proof of much, is it?

I'm reasonably sure there wasn't a more obvious issue contributing to our failure.

In my line of work, you learn that "This is what I specifically remember" doesn't have any reasonable bearing on the entirety of a situation. For example, if everybody's DPS was lower than it could be, then everyone contributed to it, not just the lowest person. Or you specifically remember that BECAUSE it was an obvious issue that stuck in your mind to look up while you tunnel visioned over other issues.

But what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

See above about doors being unlocked. I don't need evidence that someone will rob my house to know that leaving my door unlocked is a bad idea.

And since committing harassment seems to be corellated much more strongly to being a jerk than to running a parser

The difference, again, is the policy. Jerks can run parsers now, but they can't say anything. Adding in an official parser and maintaining the same policy that they can't say anything will not increase verbal harassment because they're still not allowed to say anything, but that defeats your purpose of wanting to be able to call people out on their DPS. Not adding in an official parser but rescinding the current policy about not talking about it will, clearly, increase the number of people calling others out on DPS.

Do you understand the difference here? You, seemingly, and apparently most people here, are not just talking about adding a parser in. They want the ability to call people out on the DPS. People who already use a parser but are arguing that they should add a parser are CLEARLY not concerned with adding the parser itself, but wanting the policy about not wanting people to call others out rescinded. So while it isn't the parser that will turn people into jerks, it's the rescinding of the policy that will open the door for them to be jerks.

the only people in a position to do so are also unwilling to do so.

You're so wrong on two counts. I mean, first of all, you expect SE is capable of proving a hypothetical, which is a completely unrealistic expectation. Secondly, look around you. This thread alone makes it pretty clear that if they rescind the policy that you can't talk about someone's DPS, they're going to get an increase in people being called out, just from the number of people who've shared stories about "Oh, this person was crap but I had to bite my tongue because I couldn't say anything and it was infuriating". Those people are the EXACT people who prove SE's point.

Since you love real world analogies so much, when people want certain drugs to not be restricted by law because they're not really harmful, the onus is on them to prove that they're not really harmful. They're the ones trying to change a law with their argument, so it's their job to prove their argument. So it's your job to prove that they won't be proven completely right and that rescinding their policy won't result in an increase in people being called out and an increase in harassment reports.