The Real Problem with Parsers

[JMadFour]

So basically ACT?

I play on PS4 so I am not familier with ACT, I was under the impression that it was merely a DPS Meter.

like I said, DPS is all anyone care or talks about.

[Kabooa]

I play on PS4 so I am not familier with ACT, I was under the impression that it was merely a DPS Meter.

like I said, DPS is all anyone care or talks about.

ACT is basically what you're talking about. Unfortunately it's only for PC. That's why an official in game tool is needed; For the PS4 players, and for PC to avoid the hassle of ensuring it works after every maintenance and minor patch.

DPS is the most objectively easy thing to measure.
You can't really measure tank mitigation or healing effectively, as the two are so intertwined that a shift in one affects the other. It helps, but the data there is a strange one to interpret.

DPS benchmarks are easy to set, easy to see who is capable of reaching, and easy to find more ways to get some (Via Tanks/healers)

[rappa]

Guys i will tell you a secret.

Parser ingame exist



It's disable, enough "i play as i want" players are not ready to discover they s_ck

[Viridiana]

It also has a decent chance of not working because you kicked them and wasted their queue, which could just lead to them being pissed off at you and even further not caring. If it's happening consistently, they could just go on to think that the community is just full of elitist jerks.

If someone can't take valid, well-phrased criticism and use it to improve even with the added incentive of no longer being kicked from a group, I don't want them in my DF pool. >_>

Right, and as I said before, though not to you, you don't matter. Even if everybody in this thread said they'd try to help before kicking (don't kid yourself, it would be a lie for at least some if everybody in this thread said it), there will be people who won't. Those are the people that matter.

And those people are jerks and should probably be reported for harassment, leading to a better community. What's the problem, again?

But at least you get control over classes and can check gear beforehand to get a better idea.

Both of which are very nearly meaningless metrics. Do I need to tell the story of the Ex Roulette where the NIN and DRG (both excellent single-target DPS jobs) were playing like absolute crap even though they had Eso gear?

"Low DPS" is not an option on vote kick. And it never should be.

"Carry me, senpai!" is not an option on the DF queue. And it never should be. >_>

Whose standpoint are you asking from? The person who may just want to clear content but doesn't care to be all serious about it which is why they don't bother with a static? That'd be bad for them.

If you want to clear content, be the type of person actually capable of clearing content. That you would even argue that this is bad is mind boggling.

For a company who would probably lose players if low DPS is such an all-encompassing problem because they just keep getting kicked from runs and don't see the point in continuing to pay for a game full of elitists? I think this is the most important standpoint, don't you? Remember, SE is, above all else, a company. If they start losing players due to the people trying to cleanse the casual filth out of THEIR duty roulettes, they're losing money.

How many players stop playing because they're tired of people thinking they deserve to clear content just because they can queue for it? People who don't see a reason to continue playing a game full of people with no interest in self-improvement? People who apparently can't read their tooltips or figure out what their skills and combinations do? You can't just pretend there isn't another side to this.

Edit:

Or maybe the character I choose to show to the forum is entirely irrelevant to what I have or haven't done.

That's the only character on your account. If you have another account, by all means link it?

[JMadFour]

Guys i will tell you a secret.

Parser ingame exist


It's disable, enough "i play as i want" players are not ready to discover they s_ck

how did you get that?

[DestinovaTrueblade]

I play on PS4 so I am not familier with ACT, I was under the impression that it was merely a DPS Meter. B

like I said, DPS is all anyone care or talks about.

Eh? What we definitely care about heals and tanks doing their main jobs, cause when they don't the whole group would simply wipe. It's just that during progression we need them to contribute dps because the dps people are undergeared.

[braneri1]

Personally, I would not stop at a DPS Meter, I would include an entire suite of statistic Meters, including Damage Taken, Aggro Generated, Healing, Heals Per Second, Overhealing, Damage Taken per Attack, etc.

Parsers that are available like ACT already do this. Maybe not everything you specifically mentioned since I'm not on pc so I can't look through it myself, but from what I've seen in screen shots they are definitely more than just a simple outgoing damage calculator, and have a variety of uses.

[DestinovaTrueblade]

ACT already does all that. Just that it is much easier to evaluate tank and healer performance than dps. You don't need to know a person's hps to know if they r A good or bad healer, u can tell if he's keeping everyone alive or not

[Erim-Nelhah]

For those thinking that parsers will be abused, well, I agree that they will. The difference between your stance and mine is this: I think people abusing parsers should be punished, regardless of whether or not an official one is ever implemented. Let SE define what does and doesn't constitute abuse - they're decent about it - and be aware that PF groups listing DPS requirements probably won't (and shouldn't) be considered abuse, since you don't have to join said PF groups.

Also:

But what if the only PF groups available on my server all have ridiculous requirements on them?

Then make your own PF group. You may find that there are other like-minded players out there willing to join.

As for kicking someone for simply having low DPS, even when you're able to clear the content just fine, I've never had that happen - not once. If it does, well, idk if SE will call that abuse, or if they'll call it a "playstyle difference", but I'm leaning towards abuse here...and people who do it should be punished.

--Erim Nelhah

[Viridiana]

Unfortunately for you, then, it isn't your pool. It's everybody's pool.

Right, which means people like this are hurting everybody. Does it count as selfish if you do something that benefits you along with everyone else, or when you do something that benefits you at the expense of everyone else?

They could just as easily say that they don't want people who'd kick them over DPS in their DF pool and be just as valid because you're both players.

The wonders of democracy. Either there are more people unwilling to improve at all costs, in which case people will stop using DF or leave the game entirely; or there are more willing to kick for blatant unwillingness to improve, in which case people unwilling to improve will leave the DF or the game. I'd rather pick the option that increases the general skill level of the populace, not the one that lowers it. It's already plenty low.

The effect they have before they get reported.

I suppose you don't clean cuts either, because it hurts to clean them even though it leads to a more desirable outcome.

Still better than going in blind.

No, it's essentially still going in blind. Besides, are you really arguing that we should go back to the days of "LFG BRD+BLM for WP SR! Must have relic+1 and full Darklight!"? Because even as a BRD playing then, that crap sucked.

What's carrying to you may be fine to them.

Rather exactly the problem, isn't it? Most of us don't expect everyone we meet in DF to be above average. Most of us will settle for slightly below average, even. Carrying is below that. More on this in a moment, though…

Some people may feel that if someone's doing 800 DPS on a class with gear that could be doing 1200 DPS is being carried. Are they right in that assumption? Should SE make a new set of rules to govern what's carrying and what's not carrying? Or should they just deal with extra reports from people getting kicked for that?

I'd be ashamed for them if they're doing 800 out of 1200 DPS. I wouldn't usually consider it enough to kick, though. If we're failing fights and the MNK is doing less damage than the PLD, though, we're gonna have to have a talk.

And again I'll ask, what happens if you kick the person you were carrying, open up to fill the spot, and then another person comes in that's just as bad or worse? Do you kick them to? What gives you the right to waste multiple peoples' queue times?

If they can't complete the content, they're wasting their own queue time. I'm just saving everyone, the incompetent ones included, from having it be a drawn out travesty. I can either let them waste their queue time and the 90 dungeon minutes of 3/7 other people, or I can let them waste their own queue time and cut short their wasting of actual dungeon time. If their replacement is just as bad, we have a new person to try to work with. If that still doesn't work, I'll eat the 30 minute penalty like I've done a few times before.

If you don't want to carry a person, what's stopping YOU from leaving the party and not forcing your will on someone else?

I'm pretty sure that I already said "Carry me, senpai!" isn't a DF option. How would you feel if you kept getting matched with DPS who would only auto-attack during each of your roulette runs? People losing to the healer in DPS? People actually doing less DPS than the Limit Break does? Behaviour like this isn't acceptable to me, because it's putting oneself above the group (while still basically hindering oneself, oddly).

There's a reason that carries are sold for millions of gil. Hint: it's not because they're readily available in DF. If someone wants a carry, the onus is on them to find a group willing to do so out of either friendship or payment.

If they do, then they clearly didn't exercise the options available to them by premaking parties.

Shouldn't need to premake a party to finish Neverreap in a reasonable time. And honestly, if you're really telling all the most competent people to just make premades instead of using DF, you're directly advocating for a DF pool of incompetent people. This seems self-defeating in the extreme, unless you're already doing premades.

I'm not. I'm just not saying that my side is more important than anyone else's, and especially not more important than SE's. Fact is, if SE says they don't want to risk problems with people being harassed or kicked because of their DPS, then saying "Sure there will be problems but eventually there might not be" isn't going to convince them otherwise.

What kind of reputation do they want? Do they want to be known as the company that demands DPS levels but doesn't allow people to measure DPS? Do they want to be known as the company that babies their players to the point that it intrudes against actual functionality (which is what they already do, separate from the parser discussion)? Because these are both valid points that can be raised to potential customers, and I suspect it hurts sales already.

That's the only character on my account I've chosen to display.

I'm reasonably sure there's no option in the forum's settings to limit which characters on an account are visible in the profile page. If there are, I can't find them even though I just went looking for them. Mind telling me where they are? I've only got the one character that matters, but I'm pretty sure people can see both of my characters if they look.

OR take your eyes off your parser for ten minutes and look up a guide on how to preform a party. You'll find it does wonders for not having to worry about whether you're carrying people, and run time will go up if you run with the same people so you know how to work together better.

You really seem to think that preforming a party is magically going to keep underperformers out, don't you? Having been an underperformer in a PF group, I can tell you that it really doesn't. But when I was called out on my bad play, I apologized and dropped group. The next night, I got back into the same leader's group and performed much better, because I assessed what I was doing wrong and corrected it and because they were nice enough to give me a second chance.

Meanwhile, you're basically advocating a static or semi-static just to do normal DF content. That's really your solution?

EDIT:

Then clearly parsers are not as necessary to holding DPS accountable as people would argue. I can tell easily when there's any significantly underperforming DPS, so I don't know why people say it's so hard.

And this is the issue with snipping quotes and quote mining. Rice said that some kicks will happen regardless of parsers because some people do really obvious issues. Good job trying to extrapolate that out to everyone, though.

how did you get that?

http://zantetsuken.net/news/new-scre...l&shared=email

ARR developer screenshots from before launch.