Isn't this class trinity a bit dated now?

[Tint]

i really don't like that they are moving away from the trinity. why can tanks do that much damage? and i am a healer who has nothing to heal but has to do damage... all the tanks in DPS gear and still plenty of time for healer dps? why? and then the whole unsynced option... who needs a second healer when one alone is more than enough?

either give me something to heal or give me enough acc and more dmg output and a better mana regeneration that i am able to dps -.-

the situation right now is just stupid.

[Shurrikhan]

I feel like if you want the Trinity changed then the DF would have to search based on a lenient check of certain sums of sub-roles expected to be able to clear the content, and for our current to trinity to actually have more, not less, overlap available to it. Our current "support", which is nothing more than TP/MP refresh (when you consider than casters will commonly require the occasional Foes just to keep up with the melees' single-target dps in a given fight), does not constitute a significant enough divergence from "DPS". They are little more than DPS with attached raid-batteries that commonly go without any necessary use.

I'm personally of the opinion that, unless you're going into deep waters, support jobs really should by no means be absolutely necessary, but at the same time what they do offer shouldn't be so limited. As it stands, their primary benefit is only seen in fights that run long without breaks and require extensive healing (i.e. they should be able to offer more choices, or a variant more universally beneficial, than just Foes, in order to better warrant their presence outside of especially resource-draining fights), or a caster-heavy composition.

But at that point we wouldn't be stuck in a meta that centers almost entirely on Tank & Spank, or as near as possible as we can approach to it, and would likely have a game too difficult much of the fabled DF to handle, even if we managed to assemble their groups quickly and effectively.

tldr; the Trinity will only be changed up in any real sense when people become less dependent on the aspect central to it - narrowed personal responsibility, and "support" is far too thin an aspect of its encompassing roles to warrant its own category due to fundamental design choices in the game. I am not saying that it needs to be a separate role to be a significant aspect of gameplay for "support" jobs. I'm saying the game needs to have more than can be and its players need know what to do with those aspects if they are to be balanced, enjoyable, and significant.

[Duelle]

I still think that the perspective on introducing another category is subjective, but yes on paper what you say is true on that.

Before moving on, I'll point to the overwhelming evidence as seen in other games. If you ever wonder whether it would cause trouble for group dynamics, you need not look further than FFXI and the princess Bard/Red Mage.

As for the WAR, I completely agree but the problem is that Yoshi has already openly stated that WAR is functioning as intended and which really makes it doubtful they will change how the class functions, even though it really should be nerfed. Yet if there is one thing SE is scared of, its nerfing WAR players that are still carrying their frustrations of 1.0 and DRG players griping about having to use positionals.

I'm not sure why WARs from 1.0 would have anything to be frustrated about. WAR in 1.0 was the tank of choice by a mile. It ran all of the relevant content better than a PLD could ever hope for (Garuda HM, Moggle Mog, every dungeon that needed to be speedrun for relic drops); even after the nerfs to Steel Cyclone.

i really don't like that they are moving away from the trinity. why can tanks do that much damage? and i am a healer who has nothing to heal but has to do damage... all the tanks in DPS gear and still plenty of time for healer dps? why? and then the whole unsynced option... who needs a second healer when one alone is more than enough?

either give me something to heal or give me enough acc and more dmg output and a better mana regeneration that i am able to dps -.-

the situation right now is just stupid.

I'll agree that the tank and healer meta is all sorts of messed up. Some people like the l337 d33pz, but yeah, people don't roll tank or healer to deal big DPS. It's really a bunch of design oversights they've sort of let sit to fester. SCH being able to DPS didn't help, and the fact tanks are even capable of tanking outside of their tank stance (something absolutely unthinkable in other games) only makes it worse.

[BlueMageQuina]

I do understand how the queues could be longer, or how support roles could be deemed either useless or mandatory. I understand these things but I don't like how most posts are quick to dismiss the support option as opposed to trying to balance it in the system.

I'm sure that giving a support role access to both its support abilities and decent DPS (or tanking or healing) could even out and eliminate any real loss in DPS. This would have to be balanced as to not make the job mandatory through potentially working similarly to our current Bard; using a separate stance for DPS, support or both. The DPS stance would raise DPS to decent levels (think Wanderer's Minuet/Cleric Stance) while support functions (such as buffs in the case that everyone has been talking about) are perhaps unavailable outside the support stance, or the support stance gives the support abilities the strength, potency or duration to be useful.

Many support functions could work in a situational way alike Bard support options: why regenerate TP with a song if no one needs it? Or maybe the effect is situational in that it only works on a party member with x% of HP or who has performed the least amount of damage to the target. They could work in a pre-pull way like WHM's Protect, or only be available outside battle like WHM's Stoneskin II. Maybe abilities consume a certain amount of stacks like SUM/SCH Aetherflow. Another option is to make more RNG support like AST. These options, amongst others that may be thought of, may provide a limit to that infinite buff-casting found in other games in such a way that makes buffing useful but not overpowered and mandatory.

But let's not forget that debuffing and hybrid classes may also be deemed support, not just buffing classes. While debuffing with skills other than damage over time may be awkward in this game because essentially all bosses are immune to many debuffs (sleep, slow or heavy though stun, silence and blind are still options amongst other things), hybrid classes such as the Red Mage—which appeared as a DPS and healer and NOT a buffer in all FFs other than FFXI—are still a viable thing that, yes, can be balanced.

And I'm positive that enabling one of the DPS positions in a party to be filled by EITHER a support OR DPS role, as opposed to letting support have its own permanent position would eliminate the long queue times that people are so afraid of.

Support roles are likely to never happen. I get it. But let's not jump to the conclusion that it couldn't work—that it couldn't be balanced and that it couldn't be altered so that it doesn't mess with queue times—without any attempt to find a balance.

[Pots_Talos]

And I'm positive that enabling one of the DPS positions in a party to be filled by EITHER a support OR DPS role, as opposed to letting support have its own permanent position would eliminate the long queue times that people are so afraid of.

Incoming tanks that either quit out right for not having 2 dps or vote kicking support in hopes of getting dps.

[BlueMageQuina]

Incoming tanks that either quit out right for not having 2 dps or vote kicking support in hopes of getting dps.

What I suggested is meant to be taken as a whole system and not single elements. Thus:

I also wrote that support could be give decent DPS—like BRD or MCH who are essentially support and who no one currently kicks because they don't pull DRG or NIN numbers. I said that perhaps they have naturally decent DPS or DPS available under a stance, like how BRD has Wanderer's Minuet. In such a case that they're at least pulling equal amount of DPS to our current "support roles", there's no reason you should assume anyone should kick them: I have yet to see anyone kick BRD for the reason that it's BRD.

[Tint]

What I suggested is meant to be taken as a whole system and not single elements. Thus:

I also wrote that support could be give decent DPS—like BRD or MCH who are essentially support and who no one currently kicks because they don't pull DRG or NIN numbers. I said that perhaps they have naturally decent DPS or DPS available under a stance, like how BRD has Wanderer's Minuet. In such a case that they're at least pulling equal amount of DPS to our current "support roles", there's no reason you should assume anyone should kick them: I have yet to see anyone kick BRD for the reason that it's BRD.

sense...? we don't need a support role when the support class can deal enough damage to replace a DD.