Tank adjustments we can agree on?

[Cirdan-Faust]

I disagree with homogenizing damage across the three tanks to such a small difference. I like the setup of DRK does 200 DPS more than PLD and WAR does 200 DPS more than DRK. It makes a clear trade off between damage and defense as their should be. The real problem is that current encounters don't require a lot of damage mitigation and only have massive DPS checks. They need to force tanks to tank more and have more interesting mechanics than do this much damage before you die. If you homogenize damage across tanks with such a small 5% difference, then when a tough fight to tank comes around everyone starts saying why ever bring a WAR and the problem is reversed as it was before the expansion. The best way to fix it is to have balanced encounters.

[Seku]

Snip

Nope. People would still not bring PLD. It's utility kit is dead too atm and imo is a bigger issue than it's lack luster damage. Also forcing tanks to take more damage still wouldn't bring PLD back to raiding either, both WAR and DRK can effectively turtle up for long periods of times if they really need to and can probably do it while still throwing out larger amounts of damage while in the MT spot and provide better raid utilization.

The only thing PLD will excel at is physical fight mitigation, being user friendly to cover up mistakes made by the PLD, and Hollow Ground.

DRK will probably have some similar issues in physical fights that PLD is having now for mitigation, that being it runs out of CD's if Tank busters are consistent, but I don't think it will be as bad if a DRK player learns to up their chances of getting reprisal to pop up and using it for incoming tank busters. That and as long as the boss doesn't split into two, Tank swapping is always an option.

[SpookyGhost]

As long as all 3 tanks deal different damage, one composition will always deal higher DPS than the others and therefore allow for kills with less gear. It's basically as simple as that unless either the DPS checks aren't so tight or the DPS difference is so minimal that it doesn't matter in which case it would be balanced. Not the case currently with PLD, and especially not with PLD + DRK.

[Cirdan-Faust]

Right but its so bloody boring to have 3 classes that are the same with different names for the same thing. Paladin should have the damage they have now with much greater utility. Stronger heals that can support group healing and maybe some interesting buffs. That should be the trade off to allow healers an easier time and give them freedom to buff and DPS.

Its similar to what they are doing with AST - SCH - WHM. A gradient from Utility to DPS.

This is all assuming that raids stay DPS based. If they change that direction they can do different things.

[Duelle]

Right but its so bloody boring to have 3 classes that are the same with different names for the same thing.

How are 3 classes with different gameplay and different mechanics while getting the same results (in other words, being actually balanced with each other) "boring"? The other tanks being equal to you in damage/mitigation/utility is a good thing and doesn't affect you much. It's not like your gameplay is going to get changed to match that of the other two tanks. WAR would still keep their Wrath stacks, PLD would still be enmity attacks and defensive cooldowns, and DRK would still heavily rely on Dark Arts.

Paladin should have the damage they have now with much greater utility. Stronger heals that can support group healing and maybe some interesting buffs.

We're there to take damage, not to do the healer's job for them.

[Februs]

I agree with pretty much all of this, especially the Pld stuff. I only wish SE would take notice.

Personally, I love that shield swipe provides enmity (even at the cost of some dmg potency), because it does wonders for Mob aggro without having to resort to a flash spam that both reduces the Pld's outgoing dmg as well as increases the mob's incoming dmg (because less rotated RoH on targets due to increased Flash casts = ouch). With Bulwark up, I can rotate an RoH combo with shield Swipes mixed in to hold maximum aggro without even bothering to use Flash (depending on the size of the mob, obviously). Shelltron helps, but Bulwark is far more useful... or would be, if I could reliably use it instead of waiting for it to get off it's lengthy cooldown.

Also, any time a Pld OT's or runs MT in Sword Oath stance they are made painfully aware of just how crippling that dmg nerf is when in Shield Oath. It's nice that Pld moves have more raid utility (like cover or shield veil), but in the age where SE has adopted the mentality where "Difficulty" somehow equals "big Dps checks with minimal mechanics," Pld's feel the crunch more than anyone.

[rawker]

What if DRKs get an oGCD defensive ability like Sheltron that it is a guaranteed Parry on the next attack but let's say... on a 45-sec cooldown?? That will make their damage down debuff more reliable, is it not?

As for PLDs, would it be too much to ask for Fight of Flight to be up 50% of the time. If its cooldown was cut to 60 secs, then it's as good as Maim or Darkside. While Darkside is gated by MP management, and Maim is gated by a combo, I guess ours will be just a click/button pres away since our main selling point is simplicity.

WARs? Do they really need more buffs? I guess I would ask for a longer Inner Beast duration... 5 seconds, for me is too short.

[Seku]

What if DRKs get an oGCD defensive ability like Sheltron that it is a guaranteed Parry on the next attack but let's say... on a 45-sec cooldown?? That will make their damage down debuff more reliable, is it not?

As for PLDs, would it be too much to ask for Fight of Flight to be up 50% of the time. If its cooldown was cut to 60 secs, then it's as good as Maim or Darkside. While Darkside is gated by MP management, and Maim is gated by a combo, I guess ours will be just a click/button pres away since our main selling point is simplicity.

WARs? Do they really need more buffs? I guess I would ask for a longer Inner Beast duration... 5 seconds, for me is too short.

With that suggestion you've just made every run WAR+DRK unless SE fixes PLD's utility problem, as that would give DRK the ability to have reprisal up in it's rotations of defensive CD's as well as the promised parry.

[rawker]

If you check my PLD suggestion, I suggested that FoF cooldown drop to 60 secs, which makes it up for 50% of the time. Half of 30% is 15% which is like Maim and Darkside, no?

[eagledorf]

If you check my PLD suggestion, I suggested that FoF cooldown drop to 60 secs, which makes it up for 50% of the time. Half of 30% is 15% which is like Maim and Darkside, no?

No, FoF is basically PLD's version of Berserk or Blood Weapon. PLD does not have a Maim or Darkside, they have a DPS stance and a tank stance that are mutually exclusive.

Really PLD and DRK OT DPS in a vacuum aren't (that) poorly balanced. The problem is that DRK gains potency when they take damage out of Grit from Reprisal and from Blood Price while PLD no longer has that sort of mechanic due to the failure to update Shield Swipe potency with 3.0. You could make Shield Swipe and Reprisal relatively balanced, but I think it would be literally impossible to balance around Blood Price for all situations (either you'll be underpowered if you don't take damage or overpowered if you do).

It used to be:
PLD gains potency from Shield Swipe
WAR gains potency from Vengeance

Now it's:
DRK gains potency from Reprisal and Blood Price
WAR gains potency from Vengeance
PLD loses potency by tanking

WAR's overall DPS is a simpler problem. Tank stances are also badly messed up, but that's not even a problem right now since you don't use them at all.