The Terrifying Attitude of Duty Finder

[Mykll]

5. Providing no 'rewards' for proper behavior (i.e. killing trash, helping newbies etc.) The only reward is for completion; therefore, the faster completion the better.

One thing I loved about DDO. Extra little experience bonuses for number of mobs killed, destructible things smashed, locks picked, traps picked, etc.

[AsahinaMyLove]

some people are just plain stupid! o_O
I ignore these or just leave by dc. Giving them advices are totaly timewaste they dont listen, thinking they do a right thing! Right "tanks" I did met?
/points with a finger to tanks using full str accessorys and/or not using cd and/or no def stances >.<

[Lucke]

So the problem is anonymity. You could be an ass to the party and then when you leave, your reputation is erased. The next group doesn't know you're an ass so they don't know to avoid you till it's too late. Wasn't there some game company that replaced the character's names with their real names? Or was it their forums that used the person's real name... I dunno, I think if you're an ass to people in the game, there should be some real world consequences. Maybe in DF everyone gets a new title that's their name. I dunno, we need a way to make our reputations stick with us through DF.

Of course, SE has that name/shame policy giving poopheads free reign on being assholes to people without consequence.

[NovaLevossida]

It's not just Duty Finder. It's people on the internet in general showing off their inability to communicate and behave well.

Have everything I need from Alexander Normal, not going back in there. Didn't find it fun, and the people made it less fun. Similarly, just look at party finder comments. Some of these people are proud to let you know how much of a miserable person they are and how not fun your experience will be for joining their group.

[KaijinRhada]

Of course in a thread recounting the horror stories of PuGs will make the community seem worse off than it is, bad experiences is the topic at hand here. :P With a large population comes a higher chance of running into some rather unsavory dispositions. Opinions on sub communities will always vary, and I can say my experience has largely been pleasant. Another player from the same datacenter may have a different view according to their experience though.

Just like people comparing the bad apples to WoW's, from my experience playing on the NA side of things, I've had extremely little contact with players that made an instance run hell. LFD did a fine job of diluting server communities, but I didn't find LFD or LFR to have more sour experiences as far as rude players go than here, I would say they're on par. Actually, some of the nicer instances were meeting old WoW players, but then again, we have that one thing in common.

All in all, experiences vary, and yes, it's a problem, but not one that is easily solved by the developers (short of an easy right click report). I treat it like I do in life, treat people with respect and leave it there. Regardless of games, if they were assholes now, there's a good chance they are predisposed to being an asshole before touching this game.

That said, I do feel for people that have had really bad run ins with deplorable attitudes. My fear of healing runs deep, and I often make my boyfriend go with me when I heal. T-T

[TouchandFeel]

The issue is that the game does support that kind of attitude through a combination of:

1. Having end-game equipment gated behind tomes that are most easily capped through 'roulettes'
2. Encouraging experienced players to play the same older dungeons over and over, creating a distaste for slow runs
3. Increasing the skill-gap between the good and the bad players
4. Preventing information readily available to properly address concerns
5. Providing no 'rewards' for proper behavior (i.e. killing trash, helping newbies etc.) The only reward is for completion; therefore, the faster completion the better.
6. Having Duty Finder group up with any random person, likely resulting in conflicting playstyles. Which then in turn results in frustration.

I disagree with the list presented as being "the game's fault" and not the players'.
Ultimately it is the players that are in control of their social behaviour and interactions. The game and its developers and community team can try to enforce against negative interactions, but there is no way they can stop or control it, that is the responsibility of those involved in it, ie the players.

My thoughts and opinions on the list.

1) The idea of tomes/marks/etc. for gear is not new or unique to this game. It was implemented here and in previous titles because players expressed their dislike for being slaves to rng for loot drops, they wanted to feel like they were making progress towards something by doing the content. The devs for this game game us a mixture of things, where you can acquire the standard "end game" gear through tomes, but there is also the method of gearing by getting drops for gear in the end game raids and trials. They are trying to provide multiple methods of acquiring gear for the players.
2). This is simply a case of players always being able to chew through content faster than it can be developed. This has and always will be the case. What takes a player 30 minutes to play through takes often times months for a team to develop. Also, the dev team is trying to create more varied content that the players can participate in if they don't want to grind dungeons. For example, I play Seal Rock and get tomes from that as well as Wolf Marks and PvP XP when I don't want to run dungeons.
3) I don't see how enforcing a difference in performance based on skill level is a bad thing. If bad players can perform just as well as good players, why would anyone bother to try to be good and perform in the game. Allowing players to get by while being bad/lazy imo hurts the game and the community way more than asking people to step up and actually perform.
4). Not quite sure what you mean by this one. If someone is playing the game, they have the internet and are just as capable as anyone else playing to do research on things. Just like with anything that I may not know or want more information on in to, I research it. If I am going to being trying to tackle new difficult content for the first time, I will research it so I know what I am getting into. If you are speaking to making in-game parsers available, I wouldn't be surprised if something like parsers being built into training dummies happening in the future. Originally the team was against their usage because they didn't want them to be used as a tool to belittle or shame other players in game, although that happens anyway.
5) They do reward players for being nice and helping out. That is what the bonus tomes for playing with a first timer is for, that is part of the intended purpose of the Roulette (so that you will get paired with people wanting or trying to clear certain content), and that is precisely what commendations are for.
6). Finding random players to group together to do content is the entire point of the Duty Finder, to pull from a large group of random players that have registered interest in doing certain content so that they can be paired together more quickly and participate in that content. There are of course other ways of doing the content, such as preforming parties through the Party Finder or by talking to other in your FC or LS's or hell even in shout.

So, I definitely don't feel that it is "the game's fault" and players really just need to be held accountable for and own up to their own actions instead of trying to shift blame, whether it is to other players or the game itself.

[Kaurie]

I disagree with the list presented as being "the game's fault" and not the players'.
Ultimately it is the players that are in control of their social behaviour and interactions. The game and its developers and community team can try to enforce against negative interactions, but there is no way they can stop or control it, that is the responsibility of those involved in it, ie the players.

My thoughts and opinions on the list.

1) The idea of tomes/marks/etc. for gear is not new or unique to this game. It was implemented here and in previous titles because players expressed their dislike for being slaves to rng for loot drops, they wanted to feel like they were making progress towards something by doing the content. The devs for this game game us a mixture of things, where you can acquire the standard "end game" gear through tomes, but there is also the method of gearing by getting drops for gear in the end game raids and trials. They are trying to provide multiple methods of acquiring gear for the players.
2). This is simply a case of players always being able to chew through content faster than it can be developed. This has and always will be the case. What takes a player 30 minutes to play through takes often times months for a team to develop. Also, the dev team is trying to create more varied content that the players can participate in if they don't want to grind dungeons. For example, I play Seal Rock and get tomes from that as well as Wolf Marks and PvP XP when I don't want to run dungeons.
3) I don't see how enforcing a difference in performance based on skill level is a bad thing. If bad players can perform just as well as good players, why would anyone bother to try to be good and perform in the game. Allowing players to get by while being bad/lazy imo hurts the game and the community way more than asking people to step up and actually perform.
4). Not quite sure what you mean by this one. If someone is playing the game, they have the internet and are just as capable as anyone else playing to do research on things. Just like with anything that I may not know or want more information on in to, I research it. If I am going to being trying to tackle new difficult content for the first time, I will research it so I know what I am getting into. If you are speaking to making in-game parsers available, I wouldn't be surprised if something like parsers being built into training dummies happening in the future. Originally the team was against their usage because they didn't want them to be used as a tool to belittle or shame other players in game, although that happens anyway.
5) They do reward players for being nice and helping out. That is what the bonus tomes for playing with a first timer is for, that is part of the intended purpose of the Roulette (so that you will get paired with people wanting or trying to clear certain content), and that is precisely what commendations are for.
6). Finding random players to group together to do content is the entire point of the Duty Finder, to pull from a large group of random players that have registered interest in doing certain content so that they can be paired together more quickly and participate in that content. There are of course other ways of doing the content, such as preforming parties through the Party Finder or by talking to other in your FC or LS's or hell even in shout.

So, I definitely don't feel that it is "the game's fault" and players really just need to be held accountable for and own up to their own actions instead of trying to shift blame, whether it is to other players or the game itself.

I am not saying that a tome system is bad. However, I personally like it less. I find the RNG system and drops from monsters more interesting than drops from chests and tomes. That aside, I understand the appeal of the tome system. Your point about multiple methods has nothing to do with my original post. Perhaps I was unclear. My point on this item is that tomes received from these dungeons mean that people will be farming the dungeons. When people farm something, they become less patient with it and search for optimal ways. When attempting to farm something in an efficient manner, it becomes frustrating when others don't adhere to the same mentality.

Again, I get why they recycle content. You are again not seeing my point. It's effectively the same as above.

It's not a bad thing having a skill gap. However, it results in vastly differing playstyles and frustrations. It results in people being carried and thus become lazy while others become frustrated that they are picking up the slack. Again, common theme = frustration.

Specifically, I was talking about parsers. It's banned from the game, so you aren't able to address issues such as poor DPS with any evidence. All you are able to do is try to provide tips which are often received as negative and the people on the receiving end just become defensive. "BTW Bard, if you apply dots it helps reset your Bloodletter for more dps" "Don't tell me how to play my class, elitist!" - instead with evidence, you can actually address stuff with more ground.

Bonus tomes for new players is not rewarding players for helping out. You receive that reward no matter how you act, as long as they are new.

I understand the point of the duty finder. However, it has faults which result in frustrated players. Frustrated players take out frustration on other players.

How to address all of these? Include options in the DF for playstyles "Newbies Welcome", "Veterans Only", "Cutscene Watcher" etc.

Your thesis goes against any psychological study ever. People are not necessarily inherently bad and are often nurtured that way by their surroundings and environment. It is quite possible that much of this is outside the game, but does not mean that none of it is inside the game.

[IrisBlanchimont]

I remember the first time I did Keeper of the Lake was fairly recent. I admit I had hevy gear damage I didn't repair before going in, but someone using a parser called me out as being an idiot DPS and told te healer that if they didn't leave me dead during the final boss he was going to drop. Screw vote for kick, he was going to take it into his own hands. He then stayed after the boss in order to tell me to uninstall the game and go back to f-ing Candy Crush.

Now, I admit that the low damage output was a mistake I made, but I didn't expect the intense cyber-bullying I got from this guy. I got /tell after the instance telling me how awful I am and had to blacklist him.

I blame WoW.

[Eylirria]

I blame toxic behavior on bad players.

If we all played well we wouldnt feel the need to be shitty to each other.

[Adventica6]

Ff11 worked because if you were a garbage person the whole world would know about you, here you can't be shamed openly because of random pugs, if people started making a blacklist thread of bad people it would be a start.

Just start writing down peoples names, save the convos, go to their server forums, and show people, if you just let people push you around in pugs then that must be a nice life..

I just don't talk, I don't need to, i'm 193 going on 195 in pugs, theres not a word I need to say, ever.