We should ally with the Garleans

[Titor]

It is really a weighing of the lesser evil.

If you could wipe out a group that summons primals, which the primals will otherwise kill/enslave thousands and have the potential to grow powerful enough to temper the entire world, which is the lesser evil?

It is like the time travel question of "if you could go back in time and kill [insert evil dictator of choice who enslaved/killed tons of people], would you?" to which most answer "yes." However, if you did this, many would see you as a monster, for the act had not been committed yet and you killed, to them, an innocent person.

Perhaps the Garleans have better foresight than others, or others are just turning a blind eye to the true primal threat. I really like the Garleans.

[Intaki]

"A group of people enslaving and killing countless innocents on a reckless path to the end of the world."

Is the above sentence referring to beast tribes or Garleans?

[Titor]

It can refer to both if each side is viewed in a certain light, which I think is the primary argument of this thread. Both sides have their evil, neither is the paragon of good, nor is either the paragon of evil.

[Intaki]

It can refer to both if each side is viewed in a certain light, which I think is the primary argument of this thread. Both sides have their evil, neither is the paragon of good, nor is either the paragon of evil.

Or: Primals and Garleans are BOTH evil and need to be stomped out.

Seriously, name a single good thing the Garleans have ever done that wasn't mirrored or negated by their own actions.

[ChazNatlo]

It can refer to both if each side is viewed in a certain light, which I think is the primary argument of this thread. Both sides have their evil, neither is the paragon of good, nor is either the paragon of evil.

Note that the two people presented were the Primals and the Empire. If we had to choose to side with one or the other, Yeah, the Empire. Thankfully, as people have pointed out, things aren't always so simple as one side of the other.

It's pretty simple to understand why the loyalists will follow them to the end, they believe the world is in chaos and decide that only by unifying everyone under a single banner can peace truly reign. There is probably more to it, more to their history that will give more context but we are a long way off from learning about garlemald's society and history.

And it certainly doesn't hurt that they'd be at the top of this brave new, Single banner world.

[hagare]

It is really a weighing of the lesser evil.

If you could wipe out a group that summons primals, which the primals will otherwise kill/enslave thousands and have the potential to grow powerful enough to temper the entire world, which is the lesser evil?

It is like the time travel question of "if you could go back in time and kill [insert evil dictator of choice who enslaved/killed tons of people], would you?" to which most answer "yes." However, if you did this, many would see you as a monster, for the act had not been committed yet and you killed, to them, an innocent person.

Perhaps the Garleans have better foresight than others, or others are just turning a blind eye to the true primal threat. I really like the Garleans.

At least until hyurs, elezens, roes, etc etc starts summoning primals.

[Daralii]

At least until hyurs, elezens, roes, etc etc starts summoning primals.

Shiva, Thordan

As far as we're aware, if someone's capable of thought, they're capable of summoning a primal. The Garleans see the Eorzean worship of the Twelve as no different from the beast tribes worshiping their gods, so if they were able to conquer Eorzea, they'd likely work on cultural genocide after exterminating, what, seven species?

[ChazNatlo]

So point to argue over...

While I was making the above thread, I pointed out that:

Primals and the Empire. If we had to choose to side with one or the other, Yeah, the Empire.

While typing it up I noted to myself that while neither really give you a choice metaporically, the Primals, in most cases, Literally have the power to make the choice for you, Whereas the Garleans need to appeal to force and other forms of Coersion.

Does anyone here doubt that the Garelans would totally temper people if they had the ability?

[hagare]

Shiva, Thordan

As far as we're aware, if someone's capable of thought, they're capable of summoning a primal. The Garleans see the Eorzean worship of the Twelve as no different from the beast tribes worshiping their gods, so if they were able to conquer Eorzea, they'd likely work on cultural genocide after exterminating, what, seven species?

yup.
genocide and ethnic cleansing at its best.
and after they're done with the rest of the world, they'll start looking inwards at their conquests.
no leftovers left standing. maybe they think only pure blooded garleans are safe.
since they can't use magic.

Does anyone here doubt that the Garelans would totally temper people if they had the ability?

would a conquering empire use a tool that gives them more ways to conquer?
hmmm.... tough question there

[Lemuria]

Seriously, name a single good thing the Garleans have ever done that wasn't mirrored or negated by their own actions.

Well, they gave us Nero... who's kinda hunky and ultimately helps us a little in the World of Darkness. I think that's probably the only example though. The problem is the Garleans are dumb. Oh, there's no questioning their military might but their overall strategy is so flawed that it was probably devised on the back of a fast food napkin.

Think of it this way. The Garleans think that by wiping out the Beast Tribes they'll prevent the summonings and therefore destroy the primals. Wrong. The primals exist as manifestations of aether, brought forth by prayer. As we've already seen, it doesn't matter who's doing the praying, whether that's a Moogle, an Ixal or even the five...err, six races. Lady Iceheart herself became Shiva, not merely a manifestation of a primal but a full transformation.

So, by destroying the beast tribes they accomplish nothing towards their goal of wiping out the primals and instead just commit genocide for the sake of it. The worst part is, the beast tribes themselves aren't really 'evil' as a race.

The Ixal only summon Garuda because they were made to believe they would regain their lost flight. It can be assumed these lies were spread by the Ascians. The primal summonings are the main reason they ever came to blows with Gridania.

The Kobolds were at peace with Limsa Lominsa until the Lominsan government breached their agreements and started mining operations in Kobold territory.

The Sahagin were forced from their homes and originally sought asylum from Limsa Lominsa, but were refused. With no where to go they had to make their home where they landed, but LL responded with force.

The Sylphs, while known tricksters, are peaceful forest-loving folk. Even the tempered few don't go out of their way to harm others unless you invade their territory. They summoned Ramuh because of Garlean invaders.

The Amal'jaa are largely tempered individuals, forced to do Ifrit's bidding. Since their focus is on summoning their primal deity, Ifrit, it's fair to say their offspring are brought up to worship Ifrit for the most part. The untempered few, however, have shown to be very honorable and consider tempered Amal'jaa their enemy.

So, of all of the beast races, the Amal'jaa are the only ones you could consider 'evil', but it's not really their will but rather the will of Ifrit being invoked through them. The Garleans, on the other hand, have shown no mercy to any race and seek to conquer and enslave that which they do not destroy.