Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

[TheLastRaven]

Well if you had read you would know I am not saying it is completely their fault but it is theirs to a degree as I said but i don't think you read it. The lower players always follow what the higher level players do and a lot of them do not have the time to research or figure out all the finer points. You can't blame people for lack of time some of them don't play this game as a full time job. Where as the higher end players can clarify and explain things for other players in game and out they have plenty of chances but don't seem to use them.

Also where as i'm trying to explain my point you seem to be busy trying to insult the posters more specifically me.

That's elementary logic... I bet anyone with a brain could figure that out.

Where as I have not done that to you. So i suggest even if it wasn't the worst thing said you try to post in a way that does not make you seem like an A**hole. You're missing my point that people still over react to a delay in the completion of the dungeon be it a minute or more not every dungeon is gonna be fast. It happens enough to be a problem just because you experience it less than others doesn't make it less of an issue. You said that people are generally misinformed and can be taught so why is it an issue that I say that the end game raiders or whoever it is making these setups and figuring these things out also inform people properly or better? STR accesories can be and have been a factor in this not the sole factor but one of them and it would be a good thing to minimize incidents for everyone. I'm not poking at anything I think my points are clear.

TLDR: Everyone should try to inform and educate the player base so everyone can become a better player for themselves and to make the experience better for the whole. Have some more patience in general a bit of extra time won't kill you.

[Frigidchick]

I thought tanks aren't expected to do major damage. Aren't they are supposed to take damage? What are you doing with your tank's points. Is there a balance or str/vit points that needs to be considered? Is there some brand new way to build tanks... and does it really work? If so, show us how this works.

Seriously, it's just a game. What are you in a hurry for?

If fights are taking too long, then isn't that on DPS-- not the tank? That's why there are more DPS in parties, raids, and dungeons.

Even if the DPS is lame, so long as they are still alive-- along with the healer-type... then the tank is doing just fine. Again, that's a DPS user error. Tanks' job is to keep things hitting on him/her--- not everyone else.

Complain about the dumbasses that wear level 15 armor in level 30+ dungeons. Now THAT'S a legit argument.

[Nadirah]

And this is exactly the reason why I chose the PLD. As a PLD, I'm trying to be this giant titanium impenetrable shield that can shrug off tank busters like it ain't no thing. That's why I play a full VIT tank. Thing is, despite being i188 (I was i186 on my last A1S encounter), I was still the first to die every time. And we couldn't beat it. Now imagine if I had STR accessories, I'd be even more toasted!

I'm in mostly STR, 184 when I last stepped in Savage, and I was the last to die(we wiped to enrage).

It sounds like your healers were bad.

[Nadirah]

oh well that is a group dps issue there so not uncommon you'd die first. You need to participate if grabbing adds but not much at all... at this point gear makes that check pretty easy if the party setup is right. Faust needs to be dotted alot too, I've seen him drop as he was casting that pressure increase enrage and party members were dropping , from dots.

MT grabbed first four, I grabbed all the rest. DPS needs to kill him before they kill the tank.

DPS issue.

[Nadirah]

Thats the issue. They are going a full way instead of a part way.

I am always in Tank Stance unless i'm just not getting hit or the boss is casting something and not attacking me. So most of the time i'm in Tanking Stance. I have full strength for that extra 27% damage and I always keep my damage buffs up. I do fine DPS.

However, when I go on my healer to heal strength tanks. They are NOT in Tank Stance a lot, and switch out often when they are going to get spiked, which is BAAAAD! (VERY BAD!)

I don't mind going to DPS stance to use a Fell Cleave twice. However get back to tank stance quick!

I tank most experts in Sword Oath and Alex normal mostly in Sword Oath(outside busters), Savage A1 I swapped to Shield Oath right when Prey hit so its up for buster...

If the healer's good I don't need to be in Shield Oath. I can tell if they're having issues and switch accordingly.

[karateorangutang]

snip

Yes, everyone should try to educate the player-base. Before your go off on a tangent of trying to make me seem like the bad guy let met reinform you of the nature of my post. Illustrating a point as elementary in nature is not being mean. It's driving a point on a medium where you can't use gestures and tones to drive a point. How you take it is up to you I suppose but there's really no reason to get worked up about it on a forum. If you go back and read all my posts I have never personally attacked anyone, even yourself, so if you think the spirit of my post was angry or mean-spirited then I apologize. It wasn't the intention.

Now onto the actual arguments that matter. All I have ever said from the very beginning is that STR accessories in a party where people are playing their jobs at an educated and medium to high level are generally the more efficient option. Player education isn't even a party of my argument. It's already assumed in the argument that people would know how to play their job.

I've also said, since the beginning, that if you are more comfortable with using VIT accessories then go for it. There is little to no reason in a 4 man dungeon to need STR accessories. Play the way you want, all I'm trying to say is that in a properly played dungeon STR accessories are more efficient. We, as a group, cannot base a theory off of only variables. That seems to be the common mistake here. You need a control to make the argument valid. For me that control is assuming that the players involved in the theory are both equal in skill and knowledgeable about the general functions and play mechanics of a dungeon/raid.

Once again to be clear. The argument isn't mean spirited or angry. I'm simply driving a point.

[Alahra]

The player education issue is something I wonder about a lot. I try to stay versed in most of the classes to some degree, and as a healer I find the STR/VIT thing of particular interest. While I see a lot of nuanced discussion of the merits of STR tanking on the forums, I've never really seen those nuanced discussions in the game itself. When it comes up there, it's usually an all or nothing thing with most tanks I've met, especially raid-level tanks. That attitude does seem to trickle down to the rest of the playerbase, since most players don't rely on the forums for their information and gearing. They ask someone they know.

Tanks are also in a weird spot when it comes to gearing. When comparing gear for all other classes, player skill doesn't really matter, nor does group skill (with a small exception for Piety for healers, as healing is a rather...idiosyncratic exercise, and enough mana for one healer might not be enough for another). If someone asks you what stats to stack for MNK, you can say Crit and Det, and skill or experience doesn't really factor into the question at all.

That's not so for tanks, but it seems that people are used to having the easy answer, since so much of the rest of the game's gearing is so simple.

[JackFross]

Just for the record - I raided A3 savage the other day on my Paladin. i189 or 188 with the accs I dropped to. Ran 15k health. (2 fending accs with 190-200 for my slaying, 170 and 160 fending, 170 head, 180 body, 200 hands/sword/shield, 190 rest) Parsed 530+ through end of hand phase. Never once had survival issues once I worked out a CD rotation. Also never swapped to Sword Oath because I'm a sissy. Nor did I ever have aggro issues. Just took a bit to figure out how many RoH is too few. I kept STR debuff up most of the time, though put it on OT's hand and not my own just before EC because healers were having a hard time healing him through his triple fell cleave.

My first combo was even Goring Blade. No hate issues with 1700-1800 burst dps. (The strength accessories help with that. I ran as DRG with full fending 19k hp PLD later on yesterday and he kept losing hate to the whm)