Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

[Seshayn]

Vit doesn't increase dmg mitigation. 3K more Hp doesn't really make a difference (you just stay alive 2 more seconds in Hl content). If the full Str tank use his cd def correctly, the healer is suppose to be able to deal damage too.
Personnaly as an Astro i always prefered str Tank in my team just for the principe of optimization. And often there was bad str tank and bad vit tank. If the tank doesn't use his CDs, vit or str, we have to babysit him.

For starters, where are you getting this incorrect number? 3k hp? 2 seconds? You're wrong on both accounts.

Personally, full vit Sesh = 19,130 base (no party no food)/ Warrior would be 23,912 (taking into account Defiance, as it is the actual tank stance)
And then full str Sesh = 14,210 base (no party no food)/ Warrior would be 17,762 (taking into account Defiance, as it is the actual tank stance)

So right there, you undercut the total HP of what I would consider an average geared DRK/PLD by around 40% to fit your argument. Not to mention on warrior this total number of hp difference comes out to 6,150, more than double your estimates of how much additional HP a full vit has.

Now let's look at how long that would help someone live and assume your incorrect estimate of 2 seconds was accurate. Every boss/pack of mobs follows a set patern or rotation. During almost every single one of these patterns, the boss has short periods of time where he will focus on doing something other than damaging the tank, and the mob packs will stop to cast an easily avoidable-without-cooldown-management ability, during such time they are doing no real damage.

Now, let's say tank A (Str tank) dies near this point. tank B (vit tank) now has 2 seconds to live. However, if at any point in these "2 seconds" the group pack or boss mob hits one of these lulls in their tank damage rotation, you now have a 7+ second window to heal a low health tank, rather than revive a dead one.

In the future, please consider doing more than rolling your eyes and smashing your gorilla hands on the keyboard before formulating a response about something you put absolutely no FKNG thought into.

Oh and to answer anyone who asks, you're god damn right I'm mad. You LOSE! Good DAY sir!

[Eye_Gore]

For starters, where are you getting this incorrect number? 3k hp? 2 seconds? You're wrong on both accounts.

So right there, you undercut the total HP of what I would consider an average geared DRK/PLD by around 40% to fit your argument. Not to mention on warrior this total number of hp difference comes out to 6,150, more than double your estimates of how much additional HP a full vit has.
Oh and to answer anyone who asks, you're god damn right I'm mad. You LOSE! Good DAY sir!

Ilvl 184, (if you consider this average) difference between my full STR and VIT sets 2214 HP. I've seen single hits from boss fights take off more than that.

[Seshayn]

Ilvl 184, (if you consider this average) difference between my full STR and VIT sets 2214 HP. I've seen single hits from boss fights take off more than that.

Well, as I said, what I consider an "average gear level" and what you consider are obviously very different. Seeing as I don't see my gear as being anything special, I used myself as a baseline. As I currently have an Ilvl 194 acquired through eso tomes and alexander normal (which truth be told at this point I would consider slightly below what you would want to be if you were a tank main) I find it a safe baseline. Those more geared than myself would find an even higher difference between their full vit and full str setups.

Insofar as saying you've seen a single hit from a boss do more than 2200 hp, I believe we all have. However what your generalized statement fails to convey is the damage per second rate of the boss vs the tank in question. I've seen a warrior hit for 8k in a single hit. It does not mean that they do that much damage every attack. Bahamut could flatten an unprepared tank for 11k at level 50, but it wasn't every attack.

I personally feel as if what you said to me were similar to the following analogy.

Seshayn "You know, the sky looks nice and blue today."
Eye_Gore "Yeah but I've seen clouds in it before."
Seshayn "Ummm ok?"
Eye_Gore "Clouds are white."

No offense meant, I just really feel like that is how most conversations with people go here.

[Eye_Gore]

Seshayn "You know, the sky looks nice and blue today."
Eye_Gore "Yeah but I've seen clouds in it before."
Seshayn "Ummm ok?"
Eye_Gore "Clouds are white."

Did a fly by on that one. My response was to the fact you said that person was wrong about the HP number difference. Which it is probably what they have seen. Not everyone is wearing the same gear or what have you. Just saying that they noted a difference in 3k HP in which you claim is wrong when in fact it is not wrong. It maybe what they have on their character where I see my difference of 2214, thats not wrong it is the difference we currently have, others will have different numbers.

[SpookyGhost]

Since PLD contributes next to no AOE damage to begin with, there's really no reason to use STR on large AOE pulls. It will marginally increase your own damage, but cut GCDs from your healer which could've been actual AOEs.

WAR, on the other hand, has numerous abilities that scale with STR - including Vengeance, a defensive + offensive CD. There is literally no reason not to stack STR as a WAR for AOE pulls (no matter how big) as AOE DPS will go up overall and so will your self healing.

In terms of bosses, auto attacks are fluff damage that can be taken care of by a Fairy/occasional Cures or whatever it is Astro uses. They will always hit for X amount, regardless of HP pool - the only point where a larger health pool would increase your healer's DPS is the start of the fight, at the cost of your own personal DPS which would've been larger than those few GCDs lost. Even if, for some reason, your healer decides to keep you topped before going back to Cleric they'll end up losing GCDs needing to give you more Cures as well as the damage lost from yourself going full VIT. If they don't, then there was no point in the extra VIT to begin with, as it's overall a damage loss.

So. AOE pulls for PLD = full VIT, everything else = full STR. Raiding is it's own can of worms, but it sounds like we're just talking about 4mans here so I'll leave that out of this. If you're terrified that your healer might afk or let you die for the sake of their own DPS, then I guess go full VIT since your main job is to not die. I run 4mans with my boyfriend's SCH, so I never really need to worry about that, maybe DFing on your own is really that scary of an experience.

[Seshayn]

Ok spooky. I won't claim to know warrior, as I abhor playing it so I will ask you, as you seem to be fairly knowledgeable.

Aoe pack of 8 mobs. From the tornado path prior to the first boss, but after the first 5.

What is the difference between a 60 second fight with a warrior in Full Vit and Defiance, vs a warrior in full Str and... whatever it is they do. That number will be A. Not in Damage per Second, in flat numerical numbers.

Now I want you to take a healer, lets say WHM, and factor in the amount of dps they can do on the same pack, while healing. Again, flat numbers. This number is B.

is A > B in and of itself? If you cannot be 100% sure that the answer is yes, I call into question anyone using STR gear for an aoe pack, as it is strongest on warriors.

As I stated earlier, my guilds healers found no time to dps during any pull yesterday when they were doing separate roulette's with various pugged STR warriors. For the sake of argument, even though I know better, let's call these healers average.

Again, if you bring your own healer or have one confident enough in his own abilities to tell you to don your str gear, that is between you, them, and the twelve.

If you cant keep a ilvl190+ with str acc tank alive during expert i would highly suggest the healer to get good.
Seriously the hp you have at this level with full str acc was the hp We had when We were arround ilvl 160 ish and the dungeon were already easy

Nothing more to add really.

Ahh yes, the old "git gud" argument, commonly used by trash not worth anyone's time although I'm sure you are the shining exemption from that rule. Please, tell us more that we may bask in the glorious presence of the douchwalker (see, it's like how daywalkers are the exception to sunlight killing vampires, the douchewalker is one who can walk amongst douche without being one. Am I using the right font to convey sarcasm? Should I switch to comic sans?)

Did a fly by on that one. My response was to the fact you said that person was wrong about the HP number difference. Which it is probably what they have seen. Not everyone is wearing the same gear or what have you. Just saying that they noted a difference in 3k HP in which you claim is wrong when in fact it is not wrong. It maybe what they have on their character where I see my difference of 2214, thats not wrong it is the difference we currently have, others will have different numbers.

yes, and while what you say is true, I provided a very specific mathematical example on my findings. I also would like to note that while the difference between your full vit and str set is 2214, at that item level, did you account for your 35 points being in STR for either set? Were you taking into account a full 5 STR or VIT right side, or were you mixing and matching? based on your lodestone page, it seems to me your difference is based on STR Stats and a 4/1 Str to Vit accesory grouping. meaning your actual difference in STR to VIT puts you above that 3k threshold at a gear level I personally find solidly below average.

[SpookyGhost]

is A > B in and of itself? If you cannot be 100% sure that the answer is yes, I call into question anyone using STR gear for an aoe pack, as it is strongest on warriors.

The question you basically have to ask is simply if A + B will = higher DPS. Both are dependent on a number of factors, including encounter time, DPS jobs available, gear, STR vs VIT, healer, tank, etc. If a tank is DPSing, it doesn't suddenly mean that a healer isn't, simply that they could end up doing less DPS themselves if the tank ends up dropping too low (though Benediction is a preventative measure for this in the case of WHM).

You can't look at the tank's and healer's DPS in a vacuum, you have to look at them combined. The very important comparison that needs to be made between VIT and STR is how much DPS you are gaining/losing and how much DPS your healer is gaining/losing. You need to weigh the amount of GCDs lost by the healer (if any) vs the damage lost per AOE from the tank. If the latter adds up to be more than the former, then STR > VIT. If not, VIT > STR. If your healer is doing 0 DPS to begin with, STR >>>>>>>> VIT.

Deliverance + full STR or full VIT raises the same question. Do you gain more overall DPS from going Deliverance or are you costing your healer too many GCDs? If you have Bloodbath + Berserk + Vengeance, you're generally fine to go Deliverance due to the insane amount of self healing + mitigation you'll manage, though Unchained + all that is a much safer option, only costing yourself the 5% boosted DPS and a Decimate. I personally go Deliverance for certain pulls, but that requires a lot of trust in your healer to not panic as it's a much more ping pong situation. In small pulls, or when 1 or 2 mobs are left, there's really no reason not to go Deliverance and pop Foresight as you'll barely need any healing to begin with.

There's basically a lot of factors that come into play when it comes to AOEing down trash. However, since there are no longer any true "speedruns" in this game and no competing for times like back in Brayflox days, your accessory choice really doesn't matter all too much. As an example, I finish Fractal with my premade in about 10 minutes, maybe a little under. The rare times that I go straight in DF, it takes about 15-20 minutes. So that's a 5-10 minute difference without all the maximization, and I imagine a bit longer if I ran full VIT. A few extra minutes isn't going to kill anyone (though I personally want out of Neverreap asap) so if you feel like going full VIT, go full VIT. It's really pointless min/maxing it as it's literally a dungeon you do every day and faceroll through it regardless.

[Eye_Gore]

meaning your actual difference in STR to VIT puts you above that 3k threshold at a gear level I personally find solidly below average.

Here I was thinking I was doing ok. So what is "average" gear?

[Seshayn]

Here I was thinking I was doing ok. So what is "average" gear?

At this point? 190 would be the lowest gear I could personally even consider average, and I would say above average starts around the 195 level. This is assuming you aren't being hit with the ilvl reduction of pentamelded 150 accessories.

I would say Average is 192 for your primary class, with anywhere between 185 and 188 being average for your secondary. If you just play casually I would say go ahead and lower those Ilvls by 4 or 5 across the board, I personally consider those to be a fair representation of most people I have seen in server or df. However these account for being level 60 within the first 2 weeks of Alexander Normal.

So really, while you might be what I consider below average gear level for someone who was 60 when alex came out, if you hit 60 in the last 2-4 weeks you're doing quite well. All prespective and opinions. no facts. A majority of players might find what I think quite wrong. Circumstances being different, I might feel likewise. I in no way meant to insult your gear level, I was just using "below average" in a guesstimate based on observations sense.

Rofl why are you so angry my facts are true with i190+ and str acc you have as much hp as when We first did those dungeon.
Did We struggled that much for the first dungeon? Clearly no so yeah a healer that cant keep you alive on expert dungeon needs to get good that´s it.

Stop being so agressive there is no elitism behind it. We are just talking about expert dungeon.

I am personnally using a mix of pentameld and i210 slaying and never had any issue.

I find the underlined text quite contradictory to each other. While I have no problems in expert dungeons, bismark, ravana, or A1-4, the FACT remains that I know dozens of healers who do not appreciate STR tanks when they go into the DF. The reason they do not appreciate these STR tanks has been unanimously consistent among those I interact with. With a primary reason being they can find very little time to incorporate anything other than constant cast healing into their rotation, and the fact that it is just expected of them to tolerate it.

Maybe instead of this #gitgud bullshit, we can start #gitpolite trending, and tanks can once again start working WITH their healers, considering the fact that our lives are LITERALLY in their hands.

[Eye_Gore]

I in no way meant to insult your gear level, I was just using "below average" in a guesstimate based on observations sense.

Insult? Nah take a heap more than that. Was curious. I wouldn't even consider myself casual. Something fun to pass the time while my little one naps.