Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

[Kosmos992k]

Funny thing is, in a dungeon boss, a PLD going Sword Oath with full STR gear on, is going to fulfill his survival role almost as well as a Shield Oath PLD with full VIT on. Will the Sword PLD have much less eHP on paper? Yep. Will he ever actually need all of it? Nope, even if a healer is DPSing a lot. I dare say the PLD with Sword Oath is doing his job more effectively in terms of survival, because the fight is going to end that much quicker, requiring less MP and mechanics done that could endanger the party.

If I wanted to play that way I would have gone Warrior.

[Sleigh]

If I wanted to play that way I would have gone Warrior.

True, true, no tank can contribute meaningful DPS unless they're WAR. Also, every WHM/AST asked to DPS or perform better should have gone SCH.

[Kosmos992k]

It doesn't sound like you're listening to Jacks whole elaborate point.

I'm listening, I can do the math just like everyone else. However, I'm not currently, nor will I be, running in any serious End-game content. Honestly the whittling down I keep reading is whittling everything down to one thing, and one thing only "MOAR DEEPS".

Play a healer? Better bloody well be able to put out good DPS. Playing tank, better have good DPS. MT? Better have decent DPS. DD job? Better have great DPS. If I wanted to play a game where every job/class worked the same and focused on one thing, and one thing alone - DPS, then I'd be playing something like GW2.

Forgive me for being old-fashioned or stubborn, but a tank is not and never has been a primarily DPS focused roll. There should be no expectation or requirement for tank (or healer) DPS in any content except for cutting edge Progression where the DPS checks may require that. The description of my job talked about the use of the sword and shield like it was a dance, the materia I used to fashion my relic weapon was battle dance materia. Parry is dripping from almost every piece of gear I can roll on. Everything the game does is telling me to be tankier, and not focus on STR and DPS.

One of the most negative changes to FFXIV that came with HW is the far greater emphasis on "moar deeps" over and above all other things. It makes the game feel very one dimensional.

True, true, no tank can contribute meaningful DPS unless they're WAR. Also, every WHM/AST asked to DPS or perform better should have gone SCH.

Well, putting my own sarcasm aside, that does in fact appear to be the message that the community - especially end-game - is sending.

[JackFross]

This mentality is just so disheartening. So many Paladins feel this way and it really upsets me.

You have a plethora of defense that exists outside of stacking vitality accessories and utilizing what is WITHOUT QUESTION your MOST useful mitigation skill - Shield Oath.

You have a substantial amount of Enmity generation that exists outside of tank stance.

Something VERY important to note: full strength gear in Shield Oath is *marginally* less dps than 0 strength gear in Sword Oath. And, pro-tip, a 0 bonus VIT PLD in Shield Oath has more eHP than a full VIT PLD in Sword Oath. So... I don't really see where this argument gets you other than "My job isn't dps therefore I don't want to improve my damage."


Even if you clip all of this again and ignore everything I say like you did last time, I want you to answer just ONE question (edit: I guess I asked two questions that are basically the same):

If you CAN survive everything in an encounter with less health while dealing more damage without causing the healers to work any harder than they already are with your higher amount of vit, why would you NOT change to play that way? What possible reason can you posit for maintaining 3000-4000 superfluous health that could quickly and easily be converted into 150-200 raid-wide dps without causing anyone extra inconvenience?

[CGMidlander]

I'm listening, I can do the math just like everyone else. However, I'm not currently, nor will I be, running in any serious End-game content. Honestly the whittling down I keep reading is whittling everything down to one thing, and one thing only "MOAR DEEPS".

It's "moar deeps" because, "why not?"
With how combat is in FFXIV currently, the means to do so are readily available.

[Kosmos992k]

Something VERY important to note: full strength gear in Shield Oath is *marginally* less dps than 0 strength gear in Sword Oath. And, pro-tip, a 0 bonus VIT PLD in Shield Oath has more eHP than a full VIT PLD in Sword Oath.

Even if you clip all of this again and ignore everything I say like you did last time, I want you to answer just ONE question (edit: I guess I asked two questions that are basically the same):

I didn't ignore what you said. As I said in my other reply I can do sufficient math to understand this just as much as the next person. The first sentence of yours quoted above is where the problem rests IMHO. To me it says that someone in SE did a horrible job balancing the PLD because our primary Stat - VIT - is somewhat pointless in the face of a STR stacking PLD in Shield Oath.

[JackFross]

Honestly the whittling down I keep reading is whittling everything down to one thing, and one thing only "MOAR DEEPS".

Except, it isn't.

What I'm saying is that if you really want to maximize the tank role, you should be attempting to ride the line as tight as possible. Be just tanky enough to clear the content you're running. If you're superfluously tanky, that's totally fine. You're allowed to play that way, the game works just fine, you can clear things just fine, it doesn't make a difference. All I'm talking about is maximizing the class you're playing.

It's the same thing as when you discuss a healing class. Once you're at the point where your healing rotation is so rote and perfect that, assuming 0 mess ups from the dps, you keep everyone alive and the content is cleared, you WILL find patches where all you're doing is standing still and admiring how awesome you are. These windows, once they start presenting themselves, can be - if your goal is to maximize your class - filled with dps skills. Because, honestly, why not? What else are you doing to help the party then? Standing still and prepping an emergency heal that can be popped just as easily by dropping cleric and casting it, canceling your now-ineffective dps skill?

And that's the difference. It's not about people saying "you should bring more dps" it's about people pushing others to excel at their class, rather than just play it. Yes, everyone has fun their own way. I'm not here to tell you to stop playing the way you enjoy. I'm here to explain to you my point of view.

Once you do your job well enough to get shit done, all that's left is to look for ways to improve.

For tanks, improving means riding the line and figuring out the bare minimum mitigation you *need* to survive an encounter. As you work toward this, you will naturally see an increase in how much damage you deal.

For healers, improving means locking healing down so tight that you open little windows of downtime to throw out your dots and maybe cast a big damage spell once or twice before the healing starts again. This, again, naturally brings about a boost to your dps, since it's the best utility you can bring to the party when your heals are already good enough.

For dps, improving means maximizing cooldown usage, squeezing extra gcds in where you can, keeping dots flowing, finding ways to boost your numbers in every way you possibly can - because the base job of a dps in raid content is to properly handle mechanics to push toward a clear and their secondary job is to maximize damage output while doing so.


It's almost as if this trend is just readily apparent across all jobs. Once you do your main job well enough to win, you look for ways to maximize the way you do it. This just naturally leads to you increasing how much damage you deal.

[Jim_Berry]

I was against tanks wearing STR accessories because if the demand for healers to wear INT gear, I felt the game would become sour. However, I tried running dungeons today as my PLD with STR accessories.

I honestly can say that when I did those same dungeons with the same people, the kills were a bit faster. I even went a further stepped and stayed in Sword Oath. Coming from a DPS background where my damage generally sucked, it kinda makes me feel somewhat decent that my tank can tank and deal some damage. Of course, I'm still lower than a WAR and DRK, but it HAS increased a little.

The only bad thing is, when I join a Roulette, they see my HP is just barely breaking 9400 and they get skeptical lol...

[Eye_Gore]

500 baby, woo hoo

[Jim_Berry]

Just to add, deep down, I still prefer my VIT accessories, but I totally understand now the demand for damage since Square-Enix set the fights up this way. I, myself, don't raid, so wearing the STR gear in dungeons is good. I'll only wear it in dungeons currently, though. Wanted to try it in Final Coil (excluding T12 and T13, but nothing popped for me in DF for over an hour, then I had to come to work).