Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

[AnimaS]

I stack vitality gear along with the requisite tanking accessories. That's how I roll. You don't have to like it, agree with it or even tolerate it as there is no requirement to run a raid with me.

The other bonus to that? I don't have to run a raid with you.

that is fine but at the moment the savage raids require strength and vitality (Melds)

[Noxifer]

Got to quote this as this is fundamentally incorrect at the levels we're discussing. Tank DPS outside of Alexander Savage is basically an optional luxury, yes. Good tanks will strive to maximise it for sure but you can get away with full vit turtle tanks in any encounter without a problem.

*cough* I'd like to quote what's left of OP's initial post for you:

I am tired of seeing so many tanks stacked with vitality. Vitality does not increase healing done to you at all.

To clarify. I am not telling people how to play. Just giving tips for new players and people who are concerned with their healers and such. Healers are fully able to heal you fine through dungeons even if your new in full strength gear.
.

He started this thread advocating that all tanks should use strength accessories from the get-go. Including new tanks. His initial post (I found this thread too late to read that, but I've seen bits of it quoted along the line) apparently complained that the HW dungeons were taking too long and that he ran out of MP during the fight because the DPS was too low. And instead of pointing the finger at the guys responsible for the majority of said DPS, he seemed to mean that if the tank went full STR it would be easier for the healer to keep them alive and would make up for low-performance DPS classes.

So the levels we're discussing is not Alexander Savage. Through-out the thread, I've seen several people make that exception, saying things like 'what you do in your own static is your business, and if I were to join it that's fine, but outside of Alex Savage and your static, don't try to tell me how to gear'.

Due to the first post, I know I personally went into a thread where the base argument wasn't 'STR vs VIT in progression raids' but rather 'STR vs VIT in casual play', and I suspect that many others did so as well. And if they did, it shouldn't come as a surprise that their posts/counter-arguments are based on that premise and not raiding.

[karateorangutang]

*cough* I'd like to quote what's left of OP's initial post for you:


He started this thread advocating that all tanks should use strength accessories from the get-go. Including new tanks. His initial post (I found this thread too late to read that, but I've seen bits of it quoted along the line) apparently complained that the HW dungeons were taking too long and that he ran out of MP during the fight because the DPS was too low. And instead of pointing the finger at the guys responsible for the majority of said DPS, he seemed to mean that if the tank went full STR it would be easier for the healer to keep them alive and would make up for low-performance DPS classes.

So the levels we're discussing is not Alexander Savage. Through-out the thread, I've seen several people make that exception, saying things like 'what you do in your own static is your business, and if I were to join it that's fine, but outside of Alex Savage and your static, don't try to tell me how to gear'.

Due to the first post, I know I personally went into a thread where the base argument wasn't 'STR vs VIT in progression raids' but rather 'STR vs VIT in casual play', and I suspect that many others did so as well. And if they did, it shouldn't come as a surprise that their posts/counter-arguments are based on that premise and not raiding.

At this point though haven't we, as a group, arrived at the consensus of "do what you want as long as it's outside of progression"? Maybe i'm speaking for the group but honestly 4 mans could be geared with mind accessories and still get done in a timely manner. Most of us are just picking at the fact the one or the other is more efficient, which I suppose all comes down to your playstyle.

Playing with a healer you know well?
Gear what makes you and your buddy feel comfy.

Playing DF only?
Gear what makes you, the tank, feel comfy.

Seems to be the common theme of most of the posts. I still think gearing at least 3 STR accessories in most content is not only viable, but optimal. However, I suppose if your accustomed to doing things differently and the change would throw you off your game then it's really not a big deal either way for DF content.

[bardaboo]

If im running with a healer that wants to dps I'll run vit so i can survive longer. Their 800 dps is better than the extra 100-200 extra I'll get wearing str.

[Freyyy]

If im running with a healer that wants to dps I'll run vit so i can survive longer. Their 800 dps is better than the extra 100-200 extra I'll get wearing str.

Except that if you were wearing STR accessories, the healer would still be able to output those 800 DPS the same way, but you would do something like 300 extra. Seriously, healers don't need you to have 3000 more HP in order to DPS. As long as the incoming heals are superior to the incoming damage, you'll always live no matter if you have 3000 more HP or not.

Again, wearing STR jewelry doesn't prevent the healer from DPSing at all if you play properly.

[spelley]

snip

An extra 3k HP means I get to, at the start of pulls get off a couple more GCDs before hitting the critical HP threshold and have to switch back to heal. That gets extended depending on mitigation and maybe a precast regen or whatnot.

[Sapphidia]

Again, wearing STR jewelry doesn't prevent the healer from DPSing at all if you play properly.

This is not objectively true. It's true for reasonably high gear levels, but if a tank is undergeared and has very low base vitality then even popping cooldowns properly a healer might struggle to output a full dps rotation before having to turn CS off and heal.

You're not taking into account the way Cleric Stance works. Turn it on, and you have 5+ seconds where you basically -cannot- heal and can only do a DPS rotation. Tanks need enough vitality to be able to survive a full length rotation of casts before needing a single heal, and low geared tanks often need healing more frequently if wearing strength gear, even if popping cooldowns properly.

Take Scholars. Their usual, optimal aoe DPS rotation is Cleric Stance -> Shadowflare -> Bio 2 -> Miasma -> Bio -> Bane -> run up and Miasma 2. (they can then tab-spam Aero on each mob if healing isnt needed). That's a lot of global cooldowns on dps. If a tank can survive 5 seconds from full health to dead then they can only get a couple of casts off before having to swap out to heal. If a tank can survive 7 seconds they can get a full three-dot Bane. If they can survive 10 seconds they can get the entire rotation off. If they survive 12-15 seconds they can get aeros off.

Sure, a tank with 17k health from 190/200 gear would easily be able to survive long enough on big pulls, but a new tank with 13k health wearing strength gear would survive only about 2/3 as long (due to 70% health plus lower defenses). In these cases, yes, having vitality accessories can increase healer DPS by increasing the number of casts a healer can get off in their rotation.

It's situational and gear dependant, not an objective truth. Healers can always do SOME dps, but vitality on the tank can increase the length of a rotation at LOWER gear levels at least.

[SpookyGhost]

An extra 3k HP means I get to, at the start of pulls get off a couple more GCDs before hitting the critical HP threshold and have to switch back to heal. That gets extended depending on mitigation and maybe a precast regen or whatnot.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3318162

You also have to weigh in the GCDs lost from the healer (if any) vs the DPS lost from the tank. There's a difference between not DPSing at all and losing a few GCDs. There's also difference between going in with full greens + STR accessories and being full i190 + STR accessories - you shouldn't have such pitifully low HP that you get completely destroyed within the first 5s of the pull.

Having 3k more health doesn't actually result in higher combined DPS due to limitations on healer MP and limitations on healer's sustained AOE. You also have Bene as WHM, which is a massive boon when it comes to speedruns (on top of PoM Holy and etc etc).

All that said, as I stated in the topic I linked, whatever you choose to use in 4man content is personal preference - the only thing wearing STR accessories will do is speed up the run, but it requires you to be competent and your healer to not just tunnel vision DPS. If you choose to use VIT over STR, only extremely silly people would complain about it. In Savage raid content, the DPS gained from a single target tank in STR accessories far outweighs any GCDs lost from the healer, but that's irrelevant to this topic and requires far more min/maxing due to enrages and all that noise.

[JackFross]

I hit 60 Paladin on my alt about 5 weeks into Alexander normal progression. Since hitting level 60, I have never once equipped a single Vitality accessory on my Paladin for any content I have ever run, except for fun to see how high my health could go. I only ever went max VIT with a healer who couldn't keep me up with Shield Oath + CDs for busters through the first boss of Fractal.

This is. Fresh 60. I was in HQ/NQ whites. Full strength spec, full strength accessories. Successfully tanking the current expert dungeons without threat or death issues outside of one shit healer I had one time. I ran in Shield Oath on the bosses until I no longer had any left side white gear. Then I would pull in Shield and drop it before my second GB. Once I got about 50% blue, I started just doing Sword on bosses. I've also cleared all of Alex normal multiple times, MT and OT for every fight.

VIT is unnecessary outside of Savage.

[bardaboo]

What's funny about this whole thread is that at the beginning you said, you're not trying to tell people how to play and to make things easier on the healers, and no matter what anyone else says in response, your replies are always, with slight paraphrasing, I'm right, you're wrong, git good.