Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

[karateorangutang]

It probably depends on what you mean by bad. A bad tank's going to be bad either way, but VIT makes things more comfortable for the healer when they're having to keep the tank alive through poor cooldown usage, eating AoEs, etc. But an average VIT tank and an average STR tank are a lot different. In my experience, a lot of tanks don't really use cooldowns aggressively on trash pulls (there's a sort of DPS mentality that you save them for the bosses, if I had to guess, which is sort of the opposite of what you should do as a tank in most dungeons), and STR tanking does tend to require fairly aggressive cooldown usage. VIT tanking doesn't really need to be that aggressive with them except for a few significant pulls from what I've seen, though. And that's where the difference is really.

Tanks really should be using cooldowns on trash pulls too regardless of how they are geared, if they aren't then they are not doing their jobs. This is where the argument gets mistaken. Optimization of gear comes after optimization of play. If a tank is learning his job still then by all means, use VIT to give yourself a grace period for mistakes. Once a job has been fully understood though there isn't alot of inherent danger that comes with speccing STR instead. If a healer is undergeared then alot of the time i'll throw on 1 or 2 vit accessories to give them a bit of a cushion as well. If your over i170 though in expert dungeons there really shouldn't be any problems with incoming damage.

If your tank isn't using cooldowns then he/she is inherently not performing optimally. Saving them for a bigger group, or on the last group before a boss is one thing, but you shouldnt have all your defensive cooldowns up going into a boss fight. If your leaving one or two then that is still enough time for the other ones to come off cooldown during the fight. As the healer they should be expecting your tanks to use cooldowns during pulls, and they should be vocal about it.

This is the crux of the argument though, it assumes your tank has a thorough understanding of his job.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

It probably depends on what you mean by bad. A bad tank's going to be bad either way, but VIT makes things more comfortable for the healer when they're having to keep the tank alive through poor cooldown usage, eating AoEs, etc. But an average VIT tank and an average STR tank are a lot different. In my experience, a lot of tanks don't really use cooldowns aggressively on trash pulls (there's a sort of DPS mentality that you save them for the bosses, if I had to guess, which is sort of the opposite of what you should do as a tank in most dungeons), and STR tanking does tend to require fairly aggressive cooldown usage. VIT tanking doesn't really need to be that aggressive with them except for a few significant pulls from what I've seen, though. And that's where the difference is really.

They are missing that 27% damage/threat/aggro though. Which is huge. Very huge, especially since healing also scales off strength.

[Ashkendor]

It probably depends on what you mean by bad. A bad tank's going to be bad either way, but VIT makes things more comfortable for the healer when they're having to keep the tank alive through poor cooldown usage, eating AoEs, etc. But an average VIT tank and an average STR tank are a lot different. In my experience, a lot of tanks don't really use cooldowns aggressively on trash pulls (there's a sort of DPS mentality that you save them for the bosses, if I had to guess, which is sort of the opposite of what you should do as a tank in most dungeons), and STR tanking does tend to require fairly aggressive cooldown usage. VIT tanking doesn't really need to be that aggressive with them except for a few significant pulls from what I've seen, though. And that's where the difference is really.

Nah. Very few bosses require cd's even when tanking them in DPS stance. The bosses in Fractal hit harder than the ones in Neverreap, but the hard hitting skills have cast bars so it doesn't really matter. You should be using cd's on big trash pulls.

They are missing that 27% damage/threat/aggro though. Which is huge. Very huge, especially since healing also scales off strength.

Before anyone takes this as misinformation, it's only self heals that scale off strength.

[Alahra]

This is the crux of the argument though, it assumes your tank has a thorough understanding of his job.

This is entirely true, and in context, my point is that in DF you have no clue if your tank has the thorough understanding of his job necessary to properly use STR accessories. I run into tanks regularly who don't have that understanding but use STR accessories anyway, and it makes healing an annoyance rather than something enjoyable.

Nah. Very few bosses require cd's even when tanking them in DPS stance. The bosses in Fractal hit harder than the ones in Neverreap, but the hard hitting skills have cast bars so it doesn't really matter. You should be using cd's on big trash pulls.

Which is what I was saying.

[Eye_Gore]

Nah. Very few bosses require cd's even when tanking them in DPS stance. The bosses in Fractal hit harder than the ones in Neverreap, but the hard hitting skills have cast bars so it doesn't really matter. You should be using cd's on big trash pulls.

But why not use them? Not like its detrimental to anyone. Reminds me of one run in Neverreap was a large pull, noticed my health really low went to pop off HG but not in time and died. When I respawned I apologized for not getting HG off in time, just got met with grief by one playing saying I shouldn't need it on trash pulls. Well I know I shouldn't need it but I have and if it meant not dying I'm going to use it. Again its not detrimental I have the abilities may as well use them. An unused ability is a useless ability.

[Nomad-phx]

But why not use them? Not like its detrimental to anyone. Reminds me of one run in Neverreap was a large pull, noticed my health really low went to pop off HG but not in time and died. When I respawned I apologized for not getting HG off in time, just got met with grief by one playing saying I shouldn't need it on trash pulls. Well I know I shouldn't need it but I have and if it meant not dying I'm going to use it. Again its not detrimental I have the abilities may as well use them. An unused ability is a useless ability.

Better to have and not need than to need and not have

[karateorangutang]

This is entirely true, and in context, my point is that in DF you have no clue if your tank has the thorough understanding of his job necessary to properly use STR accessories. I run into tanks regularly who don't have that understanding but use STR accessories anyway, and it makes healing an annoyance rather than something enjoyable.

Yeah which is why im saying DF is a crapshoot. It really can't even be considered in the hypothesis because there is no control. The argument is that, in theory, there is no reason why STR accessories should outperform VIT accessories when used properly. I've never advocated that new tanks that don't have a good understanding of their job or the instances should run out and load up on STR gear. The argument is that a tank who is competent is selling themself short by gearing all VIT accessories. If your running into tanks that are bad ( and yes if they are gearing STR and can't handle it then they are bad, whether or not it is their fault) then gearing STR is the least of their issues.

[ArdorGrey]

This is entirely true, and in context, my point is that in DF you have no clue if your tank has the thorough understanding of his job necessary to properly use STR accessories. I run into tanks regularly who don't have that understanding but use STR accessories anyway, and it makes healing an annoyance rather than something enjoyable.

Gotta love tanks that save their big cds "for emergencies". -_-

[Alahra]

I've never advocated that new tanks that don't have a good understanding of their job or the instances should run out and load up on STR gear.

The problem is that they can and do, more and more frequently, as the meta coalesces around the idea that STR is BiS for tanks. That's certainly true in a vacuum and assuming player skill and left-side gear is at the proper VIT level for the content in question (and the healer is geared enough to handle it while not losing DPS themselves, and so on). But there's a lot of nuance in the argument that is sometimes lost by the greater community in practice, which leads to players in DF doing things they shouldn't be doing because STR is the "best" way to play.

Analogously, to illustrate what I'm getting at from another angle: similar things happen with DPS on easier content sometimes, where they've had groups that can skip mechanics because of high DPS and the like, because the meta has become "ignore adds" for that particular fight. Garuda HM in the Nexus/Zeta hayday is a great example of this: if a group with undergeared DPS tries the now common burn strat instead of killing the adds, it can lead to wipes. Similar things happen with STR tanks that don't actually have the full understanding of how, when, and why STR is appropriate for them because only the core of the "argument" (that STR is the best option for tanks) gets through since not everyone reads the excellent and well thought out posts about proper STR accessory usage on the forums and elsewhere.

Tank gearing isn't intuitive right now in the way that it interacts with the game's systems (particularly with respect to Need/Greed privileges), and it's causing some pretty goofy things in the community in my experience.

[Ashkendor]

But why not use them? Not like its detrimental to anyone. Reminds me of one run in Neverreap was a large pull, noticed my health really low went to pop off HG but not in time and died. When I respawned I apologized for not getting HG off in time, just got met with grief by one playing saying I shouldn't need it on trash pulls. Well I know I shouldn't need it but I have and if it meant not dying I'm going to use it. Again its not detrimental I have the abilities may as well use them. An unused ability is a useless ability.

Anyone giving you grief for that doesn't know what they're talking about. You take far more sustained damage in trash pulls than boss fights. I always end up blowing Hallowed on a big trash pull. Boss fights have, at worst, predictable spike damage.

Gotta love tanks that save their big cds "for emergencies". -_-

I used to do this. I think it's mostly a symptom of newer tanks or those that don't main tank.