Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

[Sapphidia]

I think the end result here is that tanks are the only job that have to make the decision to nerf part of their effectiveness (the role they were actually brought along for, technically) in order to be optimal.

Healers and DPS continue to gain power in their DPS output AND their survivability via constant upgrades. They don't have to choose, every upgraded ilevel part they get just buffs them in their role.

Tanks have a choice. Choice is good, yes, but it's weird - on gearing ourselves to be "optimal" by putting out damage, we're making ourselves have a lower EHP. "Harder to heal" isnt really the term, but we're nerfing our ability to be left alone without heals, survive when healers are dead, or take even more spike damage than intended.

Of course once you're comfy in full slaying then yes, every item is an upgrade - mostly talking here about when you're still a bit under the comfy gear for an encounter and are wearing a mix of Fending and Slaying. You get an upgraded left side part, it boosts your damage and your EHP... and then you nullify the EHP boost by swapping out a fending for another slaying.

It can be fun to fiddle the tradeoff, but as you can see from this thread it's a contentious issue. Tanks want to do the highest threat/damage output they can. Healers/DPS want a faster run. But if the tank dies because they make a misplay or the healer has a hiccup, fingers will be pointed at the fact they had less HP than they could have had.

And all this contention just boils down to one thing - tank accessories. If Fending accessories didn't exist and all tanks HAD to use slaying, all would be good (just some cutting edge tankbusters would be a bit harsh). Likewise if Fending had strength on them, or tanks scaled with vitality, it would be fine too.

The issue at hand is that feeling of having to choose to nerf part of your power in order to improve another, which is a tradeoff that other classes don't have to make. Imagine if Cleric Stance didn't exist and healers had to juggle Mind gear for heals and Int gear for maxing dps. You'd see healers running dungeons in full int accessories and the healer forum would be equally awash with "omg healers please use Int accessories for faster runs" coupled with "stop using int accs in dungeons".

Having a choice and gearing correctly for an encounter is part of the fun/skill of an MMO, but it IS a little weird that tanks are the only class needing to make that tradeoff. I think everyone would end up happier if there was a one-size-fits-all mentality for accessories.

[FallenWings]

I think the end result here is that tanks are the only job that have to make the decision to nerf part of their effectiveness (the role they were actually brought along for, technically) in order to be optimal.

So much truth it BURNS.

Despite being a power mad WAR. I certainly do miss those moments when my HP bar barely drops below 60%. The fact that we have to choose between glass cannon and meat wall is certainly a refreshing aspect in this meta but the downside in its views amongst the community can cause far too much stress on a classtype with already too much stress to begin with. Whichever path you take, you don't really become "better" as a whole as you only specialize more in one aspect. Tanks having to suffer from the constant paranoia of what is best for the situation, always and constantly just to appease the other people who will always complain regardless of whichever decision you make. It is INFURIATING.

Wao this boss is dying so slowly, why the hell do you have so little deeps tank?
Wao your HP bar is moving so fast and giving me a heart attack! Why the hell do you have so little HP tank?

Pentamelds are great until you start thinking, wao if I had str/vit accessories I could've done more deeps/survived harder(?).

Put on more STR accessories! Put on more VIT accessories! Buy more Pentamelds!

You're a bad tank in one context or another regardless of whichever you pick.

MMMMRGGLRGLRKLblktlyjhhikrdjkrsdr

[Freyyy]

I think the end result here is that tanks are the only job that have to make the decision to nerf part of their effectiveness (the role they were actually brought along for, technically) in order to be optimal.

This is the real problem of this game here. A healer gets his DPS with its primary healing stat (MND) thanks to cleric stance. Why do tanks have to sacrifice their primary tank stat ? Why do tanks are the only role in the game who has two main stats at the same time and must constantly choose between increasing one or the other, and even with pentameld you take that choice, you're choosing to keep both at a balance which is pretty far from the maximum you could get by focusing on one cuz let's face it, current pentamelds are 60 ilvl below the highest accessories in the game; and that's another problem, why the fuck an i150 melded accessory still has more primary stat weight than an i210 one (60 for pentameld i150, 47 for i210) coming from end-game raids which should be BiS ? It makes no sense at all. I support the idea of having tank damage scaling with VIT OR adding STR to Fending accessories and locking them to their respective jobs like left side gear (Fending for tanks, Slaying for DRG MNK, DEX for NIN MCH BRD etc...) thus the DRG and MNK couldn't get more VIT by abusing this. Or instead of locking them, just make Fending accessories have less STR than a slaying but at least as much as you could get with an i150 melded one. It's just silly to not get our BiS jewelry in raids/tokens like everyone else does.
One other problem about tank stats right now is parry. I find it completely silly that the only tank secondary stat is so much garbage that the main focus of a good tank gearing up is "I must avoid as much parry as I can". Just delete this god damn stat already so we would have more room on our gear to fill with interesting DPS stat options. Or make it worth stacking, but for that the entire tanking meta should be changed because right now even if the stat was really doing something to your tankiness, you would still want to increase your DPS instead because the encounters are built that way.

[RiisWolf]

Except the leveling in this game is a giant tutorial. Honestly how do you not understand a basic rotation after leveling? You get 1 ability at a time in a way where it pretty much spells out when and how it should be used as well as a decent span of time before they give you the next step. Oh that's right they assume you have a brain and actually read what the abilities say in the tool tip. There's only a few which throw a complete rotation change at you at the last second but they have already taught you what the basic concept will be. Like monk and blm in 2.X

Trust me, rotation changes is the least of the problems. Except in a BLM's case because of mostly Fire/Bliz3 and Thunders.

How?

Answer:
-"Meh, we win" No matter how bad things got. With no reason to get better.

- "Play how you want" preachers, which ultimately leads back to the first point, and worse. I can name ways to play that ends with getting kicked, easy.

-Players being "thinkers" only to sabotage themselves into doing far worse when it's actually very simple. Stereotypically, the excuse is resources. There's even bad warriors who hoard 5 wrath for nothing! The only ones who should be overly worried about resources is DRK and the job's management is way worse than PLD and WAR.

-Then there's the total lack of information. Stats aren't clear except for speed.

-Set ups take too long and fighting trash that dies too fast never helps. It only creates bad habits, because the set that often deals the weakest damage, takes too much time.

-For most tanks, 5 seconds of no threat is too much time with no threat.

-Nobody in dungeons says a thing. So if the game doesn't feedback the bad job, and nobodies' tell the player what he's doing is a very bad thing, even go as far as to show them why, then how exactly are they going to figure it out 60 levels later? Most often the answer, they don't. So we have peeps who say what should happen, but fails to react to what does happen, be it that they never tried or the player who shouldn't be so awful to fail at a brain dead rotation like BLM is too delusional/trolly to listen.


And then they're in for a rude wake-up call when they want to step into the extreme trails and raiding. And NOT raids like Crystal Tower. Or when someone tells them the truth behind their failures and wipes in a dungeon.

[RiisWolf]

So much truth it BURNS.
SNIP

The threat multipliers should never have been so low in the first place.

[Mclyde]

Well... healers have two main stat too. Spirit and Piety. They are both support class so it's normal that they shoudl'nt focus on one stat only.

Btw you are right about parry, but in every mmo i played, this stat always was pityfull.

[RapBreon]

I'm personally jealous that tanks actually have choice in the way they gear. The astonishing lack of gear choices in this game is one of its problems in my view (or even the illusion of said choice - within a reasonable degree).

As a person who typically cares very little of what others think of him, I'd take the slightly higher aggro levels for more choice.

[Freyyy]

Well... healers have two main stat too. Spirit and Piety. They are both support class so it's normal that they shoudl'nt focus on one stat only.

Btw you are right about parry, but in every mmo i played, this stat always was pityfull.

Spirit ? I guess you mean mind. Yeah PIE is a main stat in the character's profile, but on gear it's treated as a secondary stat. You get piety on some items as a bonus, and you get both of them at the same time on your healer jewelry just as you would get some det or SS as well. PIE is not really a main stat, it's just listed as one. It has nothing to compare with STR for tanks.

[Mclyde]

For me Str is the main stat for Tank aswell as Spirit is for healer. Vit & Pie are two secondaries.
I don't see the problem. I'm looking for str gear for my tanks and adjust my vit with my leveling stat points, you know, just to not be oneshoted by some big boss skill. Same for my healer with Spirit and piety. I adjust my piety to be able to dps&heal without asking for break to recover my mana after each encounters, i'm not looking for having the more piety as possible.

[Freyyy]

For me Str is the main stat for Tank aswell as Spirit is for healer. Vit & Pie are two secondaries.

You're bullshitting yourself in that case. STR and VIT are both main stats for tanks and we have to make sacrifices to get both of them in order to have enough VIT to survive big hits and rest in STR to get more DPS, because they are both real main stats. PIE is on your MND jewelry like det and SS, it's completely different. It would be comparable if you could find STR on VIT jewelry instead of det, crit, SS or parry.