Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

[SpookyGhost]

Since PLD contributes next to no AOE damage to begin with, there's really no reason to use STR on large AOE pulls. It will marginally increase your own damage, but cut GCDs from your healer which could've been actual AOEs.

WAR, on the other hand, has numerous abilities that scale with STR - including Vengeance, a defensive + offensive CD. There is literally no reason not to stack STR as a WAR for AOE pulls (no matter how big) as AOE DPS will go up overall and so will your self healing.

In terms of bosses, auto attacks are fluff damage that can be taken care of by a Fairy/occasional Cures or whatever it is Astro uses. They will always hit for X amount, regardless of HP pool - the only point where a larger health pool would increase your healer's DPS is the start of the fight, at the cost of your own personal DPS which would've been larger than those few GCDs lost. Even if, for some reason, your healer decides to keep you topped before going back to Cleric they'll end up losing GCDs needing to give you more Cures as well as the damage lost from yourself going full VIT. If they don't, then there was no point in the extra VIT to begin with, as it's overall a damage loss.

So. AOE pulls for PLD = full VIT, everything else = full STR. Raiding is it's own can of worms, but it sounds like we're just talking about 4mans here so I'll leave that out of this. If you're terrified that your healer might afk or let you die for the sake of their own DPS, then I guess go full VIT since your main job is to not die. I run 4mans with my boyfriend's SCH, so I never really need to worry about that, maybe DFing on your own is really that scary of an experience.

[Sandamar]

If you cant keep a ilvl190+ with str acc tank alive during expert i would highly suggest the healer to get good.
Seriously the hp you have at this level with full str acc was the hp We had when We were arround ilvl 160 ish and the dungeon were already easy

Nothing more to add really.

[Eye_Gore]

Seshayn "You know, the sky looks nice and blue today."
Eye_Gore "Yeah but I've seen clouds in it before."
Seshayn "Ummm ok?"
Eye_Gore "Clouds are white."

Did a fly by on that one. My response was to the fact you said that person was wrong about the HP number difference. Which it is probably what they have seen. Not everyone is wearing the same gear or what have you. Just saying that they noted a difference in 3k HP in which you claim is wrong when in fact it is not wrong. It maybe what they have on their character where I see my difference of 2214, thats not wrong it is the difference we currently have, others will have different numbers.

[Seshayn]

Ok spooky. I won't claim to know warrior, as I abhor playing it so I will ask you, as you seem to be fairly knowledgeable.

Aoe pack of 8 mobs. From the tornado path prior to the first boss, but after the first 5.

What is the difference between a 60 second fight with a warrior in Full Vit and Defiance, vs a warrior in full Str and... whatever it is they do. That number will be A. Not in Damage per Second, in flat numerical numbers.

Now I want you to take a healer, lets say WHM, and factor in the amount of dps they can do on the same pack, while healing. Again, flat numbers. This number is B.

is A > B in and of itself? If you cannot be 100% sure that the answer is yes, I call into question anyone using STR gear for an aoe pack, as it is strongest on warriors.

As I stated earlier, my guilds healers found no time to dps during any pull yesterday when they were doing separate roulette's with various pugged STR warriors. For the sake of argument, even though I know better, let's call these healers average.

Again, if you bring your own healer or have one confident enough in his own abilities to tell you to don your str gear, that is between you, them, and the twelve.

If you cant keep a ilvl190+ with str acc tank alive during expert i would highly suggest the healer to get good.
Seriously the hp you have at this level with full str acc was the hp We had when We were arround ilvl 160 ish and the dungeon were already easy

Nothing more to add really.

Ahh yes, the old "git gud" argument, commonly used by trash not worth anyone's time although I'm sure you are the shining exemption from that rule. Please, tell us more that we may bask in the glorious presence of the douchwalker (see, it's like how daywalkers are the exception to sunlight killing vampires, the douchewalker is one who can walk amongst douche without being one. Am I using the right font to convey sarcasm? Should I switch to comic sans?)

Did a fly by on that one. My response was to the fact you said that person was wrong about the HP number difference. Which it is probably what they have seen. Not everyone is wearing the same gear or what have you. Just saying that they noted a difference in 3k HP in which you claim is wrong when in fact it is not wrong. It maybe what they have on their character where I see my difference of 2214, thats not wrong it is the difference we currently have, others will have different numbers.

yes, and while what you say is true, I provided a very specific mathematical example on my findings. I also would like to note that while the difference between your full vit and str set is 2214, at that item level, did you account for your 35 points being in STR for either set? Were you taking into account a full 5 STR or VIT right side, or were you mixing and matching? based on your lodestone page, it seems to me your difference is based on STR Stats and a 4/1 Str to Vit accesory grouping. meaning your actual difference in STR to VIT puts you above that 3k threshold at a gear level I personally find solidly below average.

[SpookyGhost]

is A > B in and of itself? If you cannot be 100% sure that the answer is yes, I call into question anyone using STR gear for an aoe pack, as it is strongest on warriors.

The question you basically have to ask is simply if A + B will = higher DPS. Both are dependent on a number of factors, including encounter time, DPS jobs available, gear, STR vs VIT, healer, tank, etc. If a tank is DPSing, it doesn't suddenly mean that a healer isn't, simply that they could end up doing less DPS themselves if the tank ends up dropping too low (though Benediction is a preventative measure for this in the case of WHM).

You can't look at the tank's and healer's DPS in a vacuum, you have to look at them combined. The very important comparison that needs to be made between VIT and STR is how much DPS you are gaining/losing and how much DPS your healer is gaining/losing. You need to weigh the amount of GCDs lost by the healer (if any) vs the damage lost per AOE from the tank. If the latter adds up to be more than the former, then STR > VIT. If not, VIT > STR. If your healer is doing 0 DPS to begin with, STR >>>>>>>> VIT.

Deliverance + full STR or full VIT raises the same question. Do you gain more overall DPS from going Deliverance or are you costing your healer too many GCDs? If you have Bloodbath + Berserk + Vengeance, you're generally fine to go Deliverance due to the insane amount of self healing + mitigation you'll manage, though Unchained + all that is a much safer option, only costing yourself the 5% boosted DPS and a Decimate. I personally go Deliverance for certain pulls, but that requires a lot of trust in your healer to not panic as it's a much more ping pong situation. In small pulls, or when 1 or 2 mobs are left, there's really no reason not to go Deliverance and pop Foresight as you'll barely need any healing to begin with.

There's basically a lot of factors that come into play when it comes to AOEing down trash. However, since there are no longer any true "speedruns" in this game and no competing for times like back in Brayflox days, your accessory choice really doesn't matter all too much. As an example, I finish Fractal with my premade in about 10 minutes, maybe a little under. The rare times that I go straight in DF, it takes about 15-20 minutes. So that's a 5-10 minute difference without all the maximization, and I imagine a bit longer if I ran full VIT. A few extra minutes isn't going to kill anyone (though I personally want out of Neverreap asap) so if you feel like going full VIT, go full VIT. It's really pointless min/maxing it as it's literally a dungeon you do every day and faceroll through it regardless.

[Seshayn]

Thank you Spooky, for putting so much thought into your response. I understand very well the points you have laid out, and those things all factor into how I choose to pull, what my rotation is, what gear I wear, what cooldowns I cycle, so many things. I just don't have faith that very many other tanks show the same level of foresight, and just assume that whatever they choose to do is fine because they did it before and people should just "gitgud".

I am actually curious though, what the difference is in terms of flat damage amounts from a str warrior going balls out on packs of mobs, vs the same packs with vit gear/stats. I just really want all the math. I loved EJ for its tank math back in the wow days. I just thought that you might perhaps have the raw numbers from personal tests you may have done.

Thank you for taking the time to give me such a good response. I wish more warriors I encountered were like you.

[SpookyGhost]

I actually play on PS4, so I can't provide raw parse numbers as the only time I ask for those is during raiding. I also never use VIT accessories for dungeons, so I've no idea what my damage is like with those. I'd be interested to know the numbers as well, but not enough to go out and test myself. : - P

[Eye_Gore]

meaning your actual difference in STR to VIT puts you above that 3k threshold at a gear level I personally find solidly below average.

Here I was thinking I was doing ok. So what is "average" gear?

[Sandamar]

Rofl why are you so angry my facts are true with i190+ and str acc you have as much hp as when We first did those dungeon.
Did We struggled that much for the first dungeon? Clearly no so yeah a healer that cant keep you alive on expert dungeon needs to get good that´s it.

Stop being so agressive there is no elitism behind it. We are just talking about expert dungeon.

I am personnally using a mix of pentameld and i210 slaying and never had any issue.

[Sandamar]

Rofl why are you so angry my facts are true with i190+ and str acc you have as much hp as when We first did those dungeon.
Did We struggled that much for the first dungeon? Clearly no so yeah a healer that cant keep you alive on expert dungeon needs to get good that´s it.

Stop being so agressive there is no elitism behind it. We are just talking about expert dungeon.

I am personnally using a mix of pentameld and i210 slaying and never had any issue.