Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

[Syzygian]

No good healer is constantly trying to top off a tank. They let a tank drop to given level of HP and then start bringing them back up (in general, shut up about tank busters, they account for 1% of the damage taken in most instances)... so vit and passive mitigation does matter. The longer you take to drop to a given danger zone, the better. If the danger zone is 1K less than your max HP or you drop into that danger zone every time the boss sneezes on you then you're forcing healers to carry you. And that is, straight up, what they are doing especially, in the case of tanks with 13K HP tanking with their tank stance off. Just let the DRG tank at that point. Keen Flurry is OP.

Use pentamelds. Full vit is for DF healers, full str is for faceroll content. If you're serious about tanking, you should maximize yourself in every possible way, not be trying to scrape by with the bare minimum.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

No good healer is constantly trying to top off a tank. They let a tank drop to given level of HP and then start bringing them back up (in general, shut up about tank busters, they account for 1% of the damage taken in most instances)... so vit and passive mitigation does matter. The longer you take to drop to a given danger zone, the better. If the danger zone is 1K less than your max HP or you drop into that danger zone every time the boss sneezes on you then you're forcing healers to carry you. And that is, straight up, what they are doing especially, in the case of tanks with 13K HP tanking with their tank stance off. Just let the DRG tank at that point. Keen Flurry is OP.

Use pentamelds. Full vit is for DF healers, full str is for faceroll content. If you're serious about tanking, you should maximize yourself in every possible way, not be trying to scrape by with the bare minimum.

Actually a good healer always tops you off. Also.. Pentamelds... You realize how much they actually cost and your trying to suggest that to new players? No. A good healer makes sure your HP is always at 100%.

I guess if your willing to pay 20 dollars for gil from chinese farmers you can do that. Maybe that is why RMT is so popular?

[Erim-Nelhah]

A good healer makes sure your HP is always at 100%.

No, a newer healer does that. A good healer makes sure the tank's HP doesn't fall below a certain threshold, one that's comfortable for said healer. The higher that threshold is, the less that healer will be able to DPS. A good tank, regardless of gear, will give his/her healer plenty of time to DPS, assuming the healer's threshold is low enough. A bad tank, regardless of gear, will need the healer to babysit him/her. And yes, I've been both kinds of tank (had a bad Neverreap run a few minutes ago, for example).

--Erim Nelhah

[Nektulos-Tuor]

No, a newer healer does that. A good healer makes sure the tank's HP doesn't fall below a certain threshold, one that's comfortable for said healer. The higher that threshold is, the less that healer will be able to DPS. A good tank, regardless of gear, will give his/her healer plenty of time to DPS, assuming the healer's threshold is low enough. A bad tank, regardless of gear, will need the healer to babysit him/her. And yes, I've been both kinds of tank (had a bad Neverreap run a few minutes ago, for example).

--Erim Nelhah

I hate the former healer because I've been so many times where they don't bother to heal until i'm low HP. Then I die because defensive temps run out and I spike. This was before I switched to Strength and realized that the healers were just bad once I got my own to higher level.

I am very OCD.

You do realize that tanks have different thresholds? That kind of thinking is stupid. You heal for how much damage the tank receives. Since I play a tank and healer I know I will take as about much damage per X seconds unless i'm using a temp.

I really hate healers who sit on their butts and wait to heal.

I would rather be a DPS Tank, and full healer then a healer who has to BABYSIT DPS.

Tanks "can" do really good damage. Sure it requires a chunk of health but your still taking about as much damage as you did before.

Also, did you really put your own name in your post like a letter? Lol.

[Syzygian]

I hate the former healer because I've been so many times where they don't bother to heal until i'm low HP. Then I die because defensive temps run out and I spike. This was before I switched to Strength and realized that the healers were just bad once I got my own to higher level.

I am very OCD.

You do realize that tanks have different thresholds? That kind of thinking is stupid. You heal for how much damage the tank receives. Since I play a tank and healer I know I will take as about much damage per X seconds unless i'm using a temp.

I really hate healers who sit on their butts and wait to heal.

I would rather be a DPS Tank, and full healer then a healer who has to BABYSIT DPS.

Tanks "can" do really good damage. Sure it requires a chunk of health but your still taking about as much damage as you did before.

Also, did you really put your own name in your post like a letter? Lol.

Did you really just make a post about how healers have no other contribution to a raid other than healing and while not healing are simply "sitting on their butts"?

Also, it is distinctly part of a healers job to learn to assess and predict incoming damage and react accordingly and discover as soon as possible what a tank's threshold is, so saying tanks have different thresholds and that that somehow excuses healers from playing their jobs intelligently is an argument based on the assumption that healers you run with are bad.

[Ashkendor]

I hate the former healer because I've been so many times where they don't bother to heal until i'm low HP. Then I die because defensive temps run out and I spike. This was before I switched to Strength and realized that the healers were just bad once I got my own to higher level.

You'd hate tanking raids then. I can't tell you how many times the cast bar on Hypercompressed Plasma has been at 50-75% and I'm sitting at half-ish HP, then my static's WHM sneaks in a Tetragrammaton to top me off. Bonus points when it crits.

You do realize that tanks have different thresholds? That kind of thinking is stupid. You heal for how much damage the tank receives. Since I play a tank and healer I know I will take as about much damage per X seconds unless i'm using a temp.

You can usually tell raiding tanks from non-raiding tanks due to that threshold. Non-raiders get to 25% of their HP and completely freak "I ALMOST DIED OMG!!" Raiders get to three-digit HP and go "Nice save." I've met some bad healers in DF to be sure, but I give them the benefit of the doubt to start off with. The tank/healer relationship requires a measure of trust on the part of the tank.

I really hate healers who sit on their butts and wait to heal.

This might be pertinent if we were actually just sitting there waiting to heal instead of DPS'ing (which I have seen, but the vast majority of healers don't just stand around waiting for the tank to take damage, thank goodness). That's what we have instant heals for. DPS DPS DPS, toggle off cleric stance, hit instant heal, resume healing as normal. Hell, Essential Dignity is wonderful for that because it actually gains potency the lower you are on HP. As long as the tank doesn't die, I don't see why it matters.

[Noxifer]

You do realize that tanks have different thresholds? That kind of thinking is stupid. You heal for how much damage the tank receives. Since I play a tank and healer I know I will take as about much damage per X seconds unless i'm using a temp.

....There are two types of thresholds. One is in number of HP, the other is in percentage of HP. Normally, the tank should have enough HP that a 'comfortable' percentage of their HP to start healing at sits anywhere between 30-50% (depending on whether you know/trust the tank or not, and whether you're comfortable with your own skills to keep them alive). If, however, 30-50% of their HP would be below the 'comfortable' number of HP to survive that particular fight, then you'd have to start healing them before reaching that percentage.

So no, like has been said multiple times in this thread, Vitality doesn't mean mitigation. But it does mean you can take more damage before dying. So in that aspect yes, it does make you tankier.

I'm all for Strength accessories and/or Strength speccing. Once you are comfortable with your skill set. I would never suggest to a new tank to immediately start out with Strength gear. I would, on the other hand, tell them that "As you go along, and especially once you've hit max level, you'll most likely find yourself wanting to switch out at least one or two accessories to Strength. Maybe all of them in the end. How many you switch out will depend on how comfortable you are with your skillset/cooldowns, the content, and the team members you run with."

I ran by habit with Strength when I first went into HW dungeons, until I realized that... I wasn't anywhere close to overgearing content anymore. I was levelling, and often I wasn't even on par with the dungeon loot (once dungeon loot got above i130). So I switched back to Vitality until I got to Law gear. (Once I get to tomestone gear, the first piece I switch out is usually the ring, due to Unique stamp on them ¬_¬ And even after I've switched most accessories to Strength, I tend to keep one Vitality ring because of that. Unless I get raid loot to compensate.)

Does running in dungeons in full or part Vitality gear make the dungeon take longer? Maybe. Does me pulling two-three mob groups instead of full rooms make the dungeon take longer? Maybe. Does it take longer than if I overpull or have a lower HP threshold and the healer can't keep me alive so we wipe? No.

The second time I ran NeverR.I.P. (mind you, I wasn't even i160 at the time) it was via Expert Roulette. I pulled the first group on that first island and stopped there. Once they were dead, the healer dropped out the second I pulled the rest of the mobs on that island, without saying a single word. Would my 'slower' pulling (due to being less geared than I liked) have meant the run took longer than the 30 minute penalty? Hardly. Especially as the smaller groups meant the healer would most likely have been able to DPS more. But meh. We got another one fairly quickly.

Non-raiders get to 25% of their HP and completely freak "I ALMOST DIED OMG!!" Raiders get to three-digit HP and go "Nice save."

*cough* Yeah... I was like that in the beginning, too. But I have a healer in my FC who... likes to test people. He very much lives after the device, "You're not alive unless you're almost dying." I don't think I can count any more the number of times I've been down at less than 500 HP before he pulls me back. And not with Benediction either, since he's a scholar xD

Strength.. decreases aggro..? Vitality makes you avoid AOEs? Is this FFXIV or are we talking about a different game?

I think what they meant (it's a little bit difficult to interpret, though ^^; ) is that if you get a "damage taken increased" debuff, and you due to being Strength-specced have a lower HP pool, it'll be tougher for the healer to keep you alive than if you get that same debuff but have a larger HP pool. The losing aggro part... Yeah, I don't know. Possibly indicating the 'stop tanking in tank stance' bit. Because even with higher damage output, you'd be lacking the aggro multiplier from tank stance =)

So, he let you almost die and wasted his Aetherflow stacks.

I think I know why tanks need the extra HP. Trolls! =3

xD The point of that was that while I in the beginning started to panic if my HP began to drop below ~25%, I'm no longer doing that. Sure, if it's a healer through DF, I'll worry a little bit, but not to the point where I'll freak out. Might comment after the fight something like, "Got a bit tricky there for a while xD Good job."

And pfft, wasting Aetherflow stacks? Aetherflow stacks are only wasted if they sit unused and the Aetherflow skill is back off cooldown since ages ago.

[Lantia]

It is quite easy: As you cannot guarantee how good the healer will be I am racer using VIT over STR.
For first time runs I will also use VIT over STR.

And if the dungeon is smooth I will also use VIT over STR to allow some failures from the group.
Play a tank you would like to be but do not say tank should do DPS.

[raela]

I let tank hp dance low all the time! Gotta keep Eos on her toes. Toss her a buff and keep dpsing away. <3 If I'm really worried, I'll switch cleric off and throw an adlo or something.

Healer DPS isn't insignificant.

[karateorangutang]

This game's meta has made it very clear that no single role's DPS is insignificant. Everyone should be trying to perform their hardest to add to the DPS pot in a group.

If you stacking STR then watch your HP, are you dipping below 50% 10 seconds into a pull?
Are you using proper cooldown together to get the most mileage? ( ie not stacking rampart and sentinel due to diminishing returns)
Are you aware of your party makeup? ( ie if you have all melee DPS what reason is there to pull large groups?)

If your aware of how much damage you are taking, using cooldowns properly, and pulling to suit the party makeup then there's almost no reason to not run at least 3 STR accessories on tank in the current meta. That being said, if your a fresh 60 rocking only Valerian gear then by all means throw on a couple extra, but even then you could easily only have to use 3 VIT accessories. the expert duties really don't need anymore than 16-17 k HP, and Alexander normal is the same. I run 5 STR pretty regularly, but I always do a small pull first, if the healer is incapable of keeping up then I throw 2 VIT accessories on and call it a day. If they do well then we continue with 5. It's a simple matter of tailoring yourself to fit the needs of your party, whether or not the group is capable of handling it is really immaterial. Arguing in DF with people that are close minded is just a significant waste of time. It is impossible to talk sense into the opinionated.