Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Do this:
Are you the tank?
If yes, did you die while tanking in STR gear?
If No, ask the healer if they had to struggle to keep you up, did they?
If no, Keep on keeping on. If yes, start swapping out some vit items and see how that does until you get better gear, or use CD's effectively.

All this may change in upcoming content, but right now, I haven't come across anything that really posed any threat to me other than the healer falling asleep, as a tank in str. (note, I'm speaking as a warrior and NOT in Savage Alex).

I actually had a healer in Neverreap EX roulette tell me to stay in deliverance and in my str gear and just tank in that. It was the quickest and smoothest run I ever been in for roulette. I wish I remembered the healers name.

The issue is. If things die faster, you actually have to heal less. The longer the fight is, the longer your mana drains.

Strength, by making you do more damage literally makes the fight shorter. It increases your survivability.

"They can't keel u if they are alrdy ded!"

[echoica]

You're making this suggestion to "new players" but imo that's the worst audience to be making this suggestion to. It's the new tanks that tend to be bad with their cd/rotation and are under geared. They need to learn to tank first before becoming a master of maximizing their tank dps via dps stance/dps accessories. Maybe you need to work on your own dps so tanks don't have to compensate and do your job for you.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

You're making this suggestion to "new players" but imo that's the worst audience to be making this suggestion to. It's the new tanks that tend to be bad with their cd/rotation and are under geared. They need to learn to tank first before becoming a master of maximizing their tank dps via dps stance/dps accessories. Maybe you need to work on your own dps so tanks don't have to compensate and do your job for you.

I don't mind switching to Cleric Stance when we are pulling an encounter at a time. However when EVERY SINGLE TANK, goes into full room pulls you don't really have time to switch out to DPS especially if your a ilvl154 new healer like I am. Every time I have had a strength tank we have been doing fine because I am able to keep him up and the mobs die fast.

However, every time I have a bloated VIT tank they take forever to die and rely on their bloated HP. The mobs eventually kill us because I either or dps rip aggro, run out of mana or the mobs last too long and kill the tank or dps.

Vitality does not increase your survivability, it increases your "own" chance to make mistakes. Its a very "SELFISH" stat.

Strength on the other hand, makes the fight easier and faster for the healer because it makes the fight quicker.

I asked to slow down, got vote kicked. I play a Tank and a Healer and I do room pulls. However I use my CDs and make sure to go full DPS so they don't have to heal me for very long.

"That extra 200+ strength you get from left accessories and stat points matter. A LOT."


Strength tanks care about DPS and their rotations defensive and offensive. They pay attention to mechanics and dodge more.

Vitality tanks are lazy and usually go through threat rotations more because they have to to even hold aggro. They usually make mistakes, a lot of them and seem afkish and yell at you when they pull 3-4 rooms and it takes 2 minutes to kill then whine when they die.

This has happened several times already.. sorry.

[Eye_Gore]

However, every time I have a bloated VIT tank they take forever to die and rely on their bloated HP. The mobs eventually kill us because I either or dps rip aggro, run out of mana or the mobs last too long and kill the tank or dps.

On mob fights tank DPS has minimal effect atleast it does for me. Its more for the boss fights that its actually noticeable. If mobs are taking too long, its not the tanks fault.

[Erit]

-Snip-

This brings up the other half of the "skill" thing. Let's remember the rules of fist:

If you are not an experienced tank who knows the ins and outs of a given dungeon, run with Vitality accessories (not necessarily full VIT, but two or three pieces to lend some wriggle room.)
If you are not an experienced tank who knows the ins and outs of a given dungeon, don't do multi-pack pulls.
If you are an experienced tank who knows the ins and outs of a dungeon, run with Strength accessories to accelerate kill times and look badass.
If you are an experienced tank who knows the ins and outs of a dungeon, do multi-pack pulls as you see fit to accelerate clear times and look badass.

If your group has absolute garbage AoE capability (like, say, PLD, double NIN and a SCH), take whatever build you want but for the love of the DarkWaradin don't pull half the sodding dungeon in one go.

Now notice how the scenario you describe doesn't jive with those guidelines? Like as not your tank was just a novice who thought he was the new hotness about to go solo Savage.

But as others have been saying? If a pack of trash is taking the average runtime of an episode of Judge Judy to die, maaaaaybe look at the people who were recruited by the DF to kill the damn things before you look at the person who volunteered to be punched in the face for you.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

This brings up the other half of the "skill" thing. Let's remember the rules of fist:

If you are not an experienced tank who knows the ins and outs of a given dungeon, run with Vitality accessories (not necessarily full VIT, but two or three pieces to lend some wriggle room.)
If you are not an experienced tank who knows the ins and outs of a given dungeon, don't do multi-pack pulls.
If you are an experienced tank who knows the ins and outs of a dungeon, run with Strength accessories to accelerate kill times and look badass.
If you are an experienced tank who knows the ins and outs of a dungeon, do multi-pack pulls as you see fit to accelerate clear times and look badass.

If your group has absolute garbage AoE capability (like, say, PLD, double NIN and a SCH), take whatever build you want but for the love of the DarkWaradin don't pull half the sodding dungeon in one go.

Now notice how the scenario you describe doesn't jive with those guidelines? Like as not your tank was just a novice who thought he was the new hotness about to go solo Savage.

Except this has happened repeatedly and most tanks, even experienced ones just run full vitality and seem to go afk in the dungeon after they pull the room. One even had 3 counters on them. Then went to pull another room after he was dying and said: "Sorry, I usually live through that."

Then vote kicked me.

You are not every player, have you run with a healer yet or are you the tank yourself? You have to see both sides to get the full effect of the story. You yourself sound like a strength tank, so my favorite and pref to run with.

He was a ilvl 180+ novice then...

Every tank I have ever played with in my runs as a healer pull rooms regardless of how geared or class they are.

Some don't even wait for your faerie or protect. Lol.

[Erit]

-Snip-

Perhaps "experienced" wasn't quite the word I was looking for. Vitality says one of two things at this point: "I'm lazy" or "I'm scared". Once you move past "scared" and gain confidence in the dungeon and start pushing to do things better and better with every pass, that's what I meant by "experienced"; sadly, lazy can't be pushed past. It can only be dealt with and carried like a millstone tied to your genitals.

And no, I myself don't play as a healer very often. I let my girlfriend who plays right next to me and gives me constant feedback do that job, and sometimes FCmates if they feel like capping Esos. I've carried a handful underperforming DPS who could have done more damage by just sitting still and auto-attacking, and I can attest that if the healer runs out of juice on garbage, it's because either they goofed up, the tank goofed up, or the DPS forgot to equip their brains that run. Tank DPS can only accelerate matters one way or another, but a tank's itemization is not the root of the problem in the situation you described.

If they chain pull regardless of gear then... well, you can't heal stupid no matter how much MP you throw at it. I know when I first hit my experts in i147 I pulled everything one pack at a time and finished them off semi-cleanly. Then again, I come from Aion's style of tanking, which is the kind of trial-by-fire that puts the fear of god into you.

[Cooperal]

"Then went to pull another room after he was dying and said: "Sorry, I usually live through that.""

"He was a ilvl 180+ novice then..."

Woah woah woah. Hold on. This explains a ton.

You're not enabling your tanks to live through full pulls and you're still telling them to lower their health pool for increased damage. I've figured it out. You're talking as if the standard etiquette is to only pull one group of trash at a time!

You see, pulling 4 mobs is a lot different from pulling 8 mobs. If you have 8 mobs and you kill one faster, you have only cut their strength down by 1/8th. Diminishing enemy damage becomes less important compared to being able to sustain high damage.

If you have 4 mobs and kill one faster, you've cut their damage down by 1/4. Which sounds like more. BUT AoEs are only hitting half their potential per tick and cast. Which is bad for most DPS and devastating for the likes of BLM. YOU were the one demanding slow runs all along! Not the VIT-enablers!

Nobody gets to 180 without knowing just two dungeons by then. And a tank at that ilvl, if not a little sooner can quite capably withstand every full-pull available in both dungeons. I think I was like i176 as DRK when I survived my first pull from wasp-totem pull in Neverreap. You want tanks to strength-up because you're only able to tackle areas if they're already doing it the non-threatening way.

You're just asking your party to find ways to speed up only after they're playing super conservatively to account for your shortcomings.

[Sapphidia]

However when EVERY SINGLE TANK, goes into full room pulls you don't really have time to switch out to DPS especially if your a ilvl154 new healer like I am. Every time I have had a strength tank we have been doing fine because I am able to keep him up and the mobs die fast.

I figured this thread was starting to devolve into the OP's personal whining rather than actual proper theory, and this explains why.

You're a new scholar. In average gear. You are worried about fight length and worried about running out of mana.

No Scholar should ever run out of mana unless they're managing cooldowns incorrectly, DPSing hard, having to resurrect people or terribly geared.

Even in i154 a scholar should be able to find a few cooldowns to DoT up a pack and bane them. Scholar AOE dps is much much bigger than the difference between a tank going vit vs str accessories.

All of the sweeping statements you've made are from a few runs where some bad/lazy tanks have had issues and you've equated it with Vit/Str. Strawman arguments all over the place. Good tanks are good, bad tanks are bad, the best tanks choose their gear setup as appropriate to the lineup of the party. A paladin in a group with a BLM/SMN/SCH would probably be better off going heavier vit and pulling gigantic packs because they'll be mostly Flashing anyway and doing much lower AOE dps compared to the rest. A Warrior would most likely always be full strength.

There's 100% truth that a bit of extra vit on the tank should allow a few extra seconds of DPS on a healer, and for a scholar who wants to throw up 4-5 cast times for maximum AOE dps on a pack, it really sucks to have a tank with 14000 hp who needs a heal after 3-4 gcds. Yes, it depends on gear level, and once a tank is in 190+ gaer on the left side then yes, go strength. I'd never want to see a fresh 145 tank going full strength and pulling huge packs though unless the group was prepared.

If you're worried about -running out of mana- in a 4man instance, then it's nothing whatsoever to do with whether the tank runs vit or str, and it's purely coincidence. They're managing cooldowns incorrectly, or you're healing incorrectly. The 15-20% extra tank DPS gained from going glass cannon compared to full vit should never be the difference between killing a pack fine and the healer running out of mana.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

The 15-20% extra tank DPS gained from going glass cannon compared to full vit should never be the difference between killing a pack fine and the healer running out of mana.

That seems rather foolish.

Bonuses multiply with bonuses, that extra 20% + the extra 15-20% you get from darkside and maim or the extra 30% you get from FoF makes a HUGE difference. "Glass Cannon?" you lose no mitigation from switching vitality to strength. Gaining more health just makes the fight last longer, it does NOT make your healer heal any better. It does not improve your mitigation, it does not suddenly make the mobs on you hit for less.

As for pulls, yes I don't run out of mana with normal pulls and I can heal just fine and even cleric stance. However, most tanks "do not do normal pulls" They pull 3-4 encounters at a time and usually mass pull. 5 seconds is the difference between full HP and dead. Your full HP does not help.

However, doing the following for example does.

Warrior:
Maim+Internal Release+Full Berserk+Bloodbath+Vengeance+Infuriate+Unleash+Overpower+Full Strength Gear. ((Huge combo I know...))
Now you are healing significantly every time your attacked and every overpower hit. You are also doing a good chunk of damage and killing the mobs faster.

Dark Knight
Darkside+Salted Earth+Unleash/Or Abyssal Drain. (Use a CD if needed!)
Now you are dealing significant threat and pushing that damage on the mobs. It does a bit more damage then the Warriors version but has less sustain.

I don't play and have never played Paladin past 30 so I will not comment on them.

10000 and (2000 hps) vs 5000 (4000 hps)

Sustain beats it out every time unless the mob hits for 5001.