Idea: Split Archer into Bard and Ranger

[Shaddai]

Stuff

Please tell me your joking. You can't be serious. Have you played the game? Dragon kick does nothing to change rotation? Sword/ shield oath make no differnce for paladins? Please make it stop. I can't even..........................................................

[Aiselia]

Dragon kick does nothing to change rotation?

Dragon kick and the Oaths change your class in the same way that getting literally any skill changes your class. Sword Oath doesn't change Paladins any more than Rampart did or Convalescence did. Dragon Kick doesn't change Monk any more than literally any of their other attacks. Getting Shield Oath doesn't change your rotation or what you use to gain enmity.
to be.

The most significant changes to any class actually come before 30. You get Rage of Halone before 30. You have 5 of your 6 main combo abilities when you hit 30 on PUG. If a Monk doesn't use DK, they don't have a massively shifted playstyle, they just do less damage. They're still stacking GLs, they're still moving back and forth to hit positionals.

Everything past 30 doesn't really change what you are, it just adds on to what you've already been doing. MNKs still have to stack GL. BLMs still swap between fire and ice.

The only exception is SMN/SCH, and they had to be SPECIFICALLY set up that way with that split in mind so that ACN is just a really basic class. Splitting classes is something that CAN NOT be retroactively done without completely remaking the game. GL comes from the class, not the job. No matter what else PUG might split into, they're still going to have to stack GL. AF/UI is part of the class, not the job. No matter what else THM might split into, they'll have to alternate fire and ice.

No matter how much you think that a split would be good, it's not even feasible at this point. If you can't accept this, well, maybe this isn't the game for you. There are other games which let you pick what role you want your class

[Shaddai]

Things

Unequip your soul crystal and do a dungeon run please. You guys are high and drunk. No massive change after lvl 30 is complete BS. Sorry I severely disagree with you. If this is how majority of players think then I'm done posting in general.

[Aiselia]

Unequip your soul crystal and do a dungeon run please.

Why? That won't change the fact that a vast majority of the skills I use come from the class, not the job. If you think that the skills from the job cause a massive change in how the class is played, then you obviously agree that everything below 30 is far more important and game-changing because they change you even more. Rage of Halone is a bigger game changer than Shield Oath because Shield Oath is just something you set and forget.

And I don't care if you disagree with me or not. It's not subjective where your main skills come from.

Here's my challenge for you. Go into a dungeon run and only use your JOB actions. No class actions. See how far you make it before they kick you.

[RiceisNice]

Unequip your soul crystal and do a dungeon run please. You guys are high and drunk. No massive change after lvl 30 is complete BS. Sorry I severely disagree with you. If this is how majority of players think then I'm done posting in general.

I said it does not change how the paladin plays. Affecting their performance is something else and you;d be a damned fool to not use your job abilities. But my point is that those job abilities are not what makes gives that job their full identity.


If I have my soul crystal as a paladin, I will do my 1-2-3 combo ending with rage of halone.
If I dont have my soul crystal and go as a gladiator, I will do my 1-2-3 combo, ending with rage of halone.

If I have a soul crystal as a monk, I will alternate dragon kick and bootshine after every other demolish, snap punch or rockbreaker.
If I don't have a soul crystal and go as a pugilist, I'll just do bootshine after every demolish, snap punch and rockbreaker.

As a Blackmage, I'll get Flare and enochian which requires management of astral fire and umbral ice.
As a Thmeruegmeuwargh, I'll still be managing astral fire and umbral ice with less skills attached to it.

I'm speaking from a gameplay perspective and not performance. You can't expect to slap on 10 abiltties and hope that it'll diverse two jobs that are branching from one job, unless they are exclusively using those 10 abilties for their intended role (which is the case of healers). Otherwise, it'll be complete hell trying to balance between branching jobs that are both dps or it branches off a tank.

[Shaddai]

...

Ok lets break it down using mnk as example. Job moves: Rockbreaker, Shoulder tackle, Fist of fire, One ilm punch, Dragon kick, Form shift, Meditation/FC, Elixer Field,Tornado Kick, Purification. So no long range period, no burst period, less dmg, no debuff, no shifting no aoe. Gameplay and performance are hand in hand can't seperate them. Not to mention you get stat buff from just equipping the crystal. You can rotate all day you won't be of any use. Paladin: Sword O., Shield O., Cover,Spirits, Hallowed Ground, Sheltron, Divine viel, Clem, Royal. No SO so no dps. No ShO so good luck even trying to keep aggro from any dps past 3 seconds. No Hallowed. You can't do a rotation if you can't hold aggro. Middle ground solution. Have new branch jobs get their own crystals that alter previous base moves to fit the standard. You get new moves almost entirely that you can't access till you get the job so low lvl is safe and its still a branch.

[Aiselia]

Gameplay and performance are hand in hand can't seperate them.

Incorrect, gameplay and performance aren't hand-in-hand. A 60 MNK that's wearing ilvl 1 costume gear will have terrible performance because they don't have any stats aside from their base stats, but they'll play exactly the same as a level 60 MNK that's wearing ilvl 200.

But then by your logic, you agree that class is more important than job when it comes to gameplay because your performance wouldn't be anything on a Monk without GL which is a class trait, not a job skill. And your performance on a BLM would be garbage without AF/UI, which is a class trait, not a job skill.

[Shaddai]

Incorrect, gameplay and performance aren't hand-in-hand. A 60 MNK that's wearing ilvl 1 costume gear will have terrible performance because they don't have any stats aside from their base stats, but they'll play exactly the same as a level 60 MNK that's wearing ilvl 200.

But then by your logic, you agree that class is more important than job when it comes to gameplay because your performance wouldn't be anything on a Monk without GL which is a class trait, not a job skill. And your performance on a BLM would be garbage without AF/UI, which is a class trait, not a job skill.

No they wont play the same. you have less skills, less utility, as well as less stats. You use GL to make a point, yet GL is a dmg ans speed buff yet you ignore the other job skills. Seriously stop posting. I said hand in hand not equal. You even said it. Think about that for a moment.

[RiceisNice]

I feel like you're completely missing the point.

Ok lets break it down using mnk as example. Job moves: Rockbreaker, Shoulder tackle, Fist of fire, One ilm punch, Dragon kick, Form shift, Meditation/FC, Elixer Field,Tornado Kick, Purification. So no long range period, no burst period, less dmg, no debuff, no shifting no aoe.

Monk's core gameplay comes from pugilist. That is, the numerous forms and positional hits. Rockbreaker requires a form, dragon kick requires a form, one ilm punch requires a form. All of the monk skills add onto what pugilist does.

Gameplay and performance are hand in hand can't seperate them. Not to mention you get stat buff from just equipping the crystal.

They are not two of the same. A BRD at level 60 does the exact same thing as a BRD at lvl 60 but with lower ilvl gear. The performance is lower with the same gameplay. You're still missing the context. I'm not saying the soul crystal does not boost your stats, but it does not change the core gameplay of the class, rather it adds onto it.

You can rotate all day you won't be of any use. Paladin: Sword O., Shield O., Cover,Spirits, Hallowed Ground, Sheltron, Divine viel, Clem, Royal. No SO so no dps. No ShO so good luck even trying to keep aggro from any dps past 3 seconds. No Hallowed. You can't do a rotation if you can't hold aggro. Middle ground solution.

Again, missing the context. A gladiator still does the exact same things as a paladin, because they have the exact same skills.

Have new branch jobs get their own crystals that alter previous base moves to fit the standard. You get new moves almost entirely that you can't access till you get the job so low lvl is safe and its still a branch.

Then why the hell are we shooting themselves in the leg for developmental standpoints if you're going to change the base class skills anyway? If the class skills are being changed, you might as well go all the way and give them their own class+job extension to give them their own identity, rather than reusing animations and skills with tweaked tool tips. It does the job absolutely no justice if their level 1-50 skills are carbon copies of their shared class with some adjustments.

No they wont play the same. you have less skills, less utility, as well as less stats. You use GL to make a point, yet GL is a dmg ans speed buff yet you ignore the other job skills. Seriously stop posting. I said hand in hand not equal. You even said it. Think about that for a moment.

Holy shit, no one said they were equal. How did you even get that out of his response? The point is that the two are not directly related to each other. A Pugilist still fights in the same manner as a monk does, because all monk does is take pugilist skills and adds onto it. You're still missing the point and at this point, I honestly feel like I'm talking to a wall or someone that straight up does not understand.

GL is a core mechanic if pugilist. If you tried to make a second dps job off pugilist, then that job would also have GL as a mechanic. On top of their form mechanic and positional mechanics.

[Aiselia]

you have less skills, less utility, as well as less stats.

Uh, no, having a lower ilvl doesn't make you have less skills and less utility. It just makes you not hit as hard.

Seriously stop posting.

No.

You even said it. Think about that for a moment.

No I didn't. I said it was by your logic.

By your logic, since you say that performance and gameplay go hand in hand, you agree that classes are more important to define a role than jobs because that's where the basic mechanics and skills come from. If you disagree, go run a dungeon and use ONLY your job skills. See how well you do. I can guarantee that a MNK that's using only job skills will do a lot worse than one only using class skills. And that's because job skills only enhance the class, not define it.