Religion is bad, M'kay?

[IoannesBellator]

So, I gotta explain where I'm coming from. When I went dragoon, I didn't know anything about Heavensward. I chose Halone before knowing anything about Ishgard, and I fell in love with the job. Then Heavensward came and I got to know everything about Ishgard, headed by a theocracy. I am a Roman Catholic, and I'm one of those who own up to our past rather than deny or make excuses for it. So I am partial to theocracy and skeptical of government comprised of 'The People" or some charismatic figure that wins a popularity contest but that's a separate issue that I don't want to discuss in this forum.

I was really stoked that there's an entire city state ran by fanatics who are very different from the tree huggers in Gridania, and whatever it is they do in Uldah, BECAUSE THEY ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING. They don't treat religion in-game as if it were an extra feature of society, but is very central to them. It was all cool, until the story started including moogles and coexistence nonsense

[Kaiser-Ace]

Uh, I think it's as against the Church of Halone's teachings to try and become a god as it is in Christianity.

The problem wasnt that he had no moral reasoning behind his actions, the problem was he BECAME a primal knowing it would kill the planet then declared he'd commit mass genocide of everyone that disagreed with him starting with the WoL.

So he went from "Pope" to Adolf Hitler really fast and seemingly out of no where for morally justifiable reason.

So that's why we "Killed" Thordan VII is because he became a Genicidal false deity hell bent on world domination.

I think if Pope Fracise (sorry if i misspelled his name) decided "I'm gonna be a god and rule the world" that alot of Christians would have a problem with that too. (Protostant myself btw)

[IoannesBellator]

Uh, I think it's as against the Church of Halone's teachings to try and become a god

Where did it say this?

Thordan declaring war on anyone who disagreed with him isn't so different from the WoL getting rid of anyone who stood in his way. His main motive was to kill every Dravanian, because you have to destroy everyone if you want to avoid vengeance and reprisals from happening. It means to have won the war, when there is no one left to fight. What reason would he have in taking over the world? They have their own gods and Halone doesn't stand supreme to them, since in their polytheistic pantheon, they're all related anyway.

As for Pope Francis... I am Roman Catholic, and I don't like him; there were better men suited to the office. There's no Church law that says I have to like him, but I am obliged to obey him in matters of faith; what he produced thus far in his papacy is dubious in my opinion. That's all I have to say about that matter.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Where did it say this?

Thordan declaring war on anyone who disagreed with him isn't so different from the WoL getting rid of anyone who stood in his way. His main motive was to kill every Dravanian, because you have to destroy everyone if you want to avoid vengeance and reprisals from happening. It means to have won the war, when there is no one left to fight. What reason would he have in taking over the world? They have their own gods and Halone doesn't stand supreme to them, since in their polytheistic pantheon, they're all related anyway.

Oh no, he didn't just go "I'm right, you're wrong, we fight now and I'll prove it" he went full King Herod and started yelling "I'm THE ONLY GOD any one will need, and I will slaughter all who oppose me, and rule this world with an Iron Fist!" so he didn't even become a false deity really, more like he devolved into a saturday morning cartoon villain.

Oh and trust me, as hell bent as the ishgardian faith is on purging heretics, it's clearly against the teachings to oppose Halone as Ishguard is "The Promised Land given to them by The Fury herself!" so any one who contests that ownership, <Cough Cough> Dravanian Sympathisers <Cough>, was a Halone opposing Heretic and MUST be eliminated "For the Glory of Halone".

So trust me, if they herd him going on about being "The God-King" then even the zealotous nobles would have called shenanigans and called for a riot.

Also, Halone is the Chief Goddess of Ishgard. And while her extended family is worshiped in eorzea too, Ishguard Worships Halone specifically the same way that Athens specifically worshiped Athena over the other 11 Olympians in Ancient Greece. It's not that there aren't multiple deities it's that they choose to worship one in Specific.

[IoannesBellator]

Oh no, he didn't just go "I'm right, you're wrong, we fight now and I'll prove it" he went full King Herod and started yelling "I'm THE ONLY GOD any one will need, and I will slaughter all who oppose me, and rule this world with an Iron Fist!" so he didn't even become a false deity really, more like he devolved into a saturday morning cartoon villain.

That devolution is 80% part of what frustrates me, in a meta-sense. A case in counter-point would have been Grand Kiltias Anastasis of Mt Bur-Omisace in FFXII. He's undoubtedly good, and so is his religion, apparently, BUT HE DOES NOTHING (actively, anyway). And you know what happens to him? Gets killed. SE loves their wise old religious leaders like that; after they're useful to the plot, they're conveniently disposed of.

I got to thinking about how Japan's relationship to the Emperor is a factor to how religious leaders are viewed. Before WW2, the Emperor was literally "God-King" but after WW2, through use of brute force of Nukes, the Emperor had to declare that he had no divine ancestry, and from that point on, all the Emperor did was to exist for him to be of any meaning to Japan, at least not as a figure of worship (except far right wing groups) All the replacement of Emperor-worship were doomsday/suicide cults like Aum Shinrikyo and scams that predate on vulnerable people.

[Belhi]

@IoannesBellator, I think your cherry picking details here. We are shown several good clerics in the Ishgardian Church in the MSQ and in side quests, ie. the one who spends most of his time in the Brume. As for Thordan, he dissipated after his defeat. My guess is his ritual screwed him over and consumed his own Aether. Note that the same happens to his Heaven's Ward and we barely touch most of them. They screwed with powers beyond what a human should and it blew up in their faces. And he literally goes on about becoming god king of the world and enforcing order on the world. For the WoL, summoning a primal is never ok. It consumes the life force of the planet. Infact the only 'evil' priests we are really shown are the archbishop and his personal guard and even they are given a justification, however misguided, for their actions. The love greys in this story.

The greatest irony is that you call Gridanians tree huggers where the spirits they worship are both real and far more dangerous to ignore. The elementals triggered the 6th calamity due to the hubris of men and their abuse of magic. Those are spirits you want to take very seriously. In FF14, you screw with nature and it can pay you back in spades.

Ishgard was a far from righteous society but it was mostly due to class imbalance rather than religion. The flaw in this lay in the individuals in power not the establishment.

I'd like to add that all the city states have notable flaws. Gridania struggles with xenophobia within its culture, Ul'dah has extreme corruption and Limsa is literally run by pirate factions. I think they did a good job of portraying both the good and bad traits of Ishgard as well. The issue with the origins of the war were born around the social imbalances which were hidden behind the lies. The reality is that the Noble houses claimed their higher status on a false premise. The fact that successive Archbishops supressed this, allowing for social injustice to become problem. The reason Aymeric went to speak to the Archbishop was to try and convince him to proactively reveal this truth as if left to spread on its own would trigger social unrest among the lower classes. While the argument that it would be a terrible cost to the public to know their fight was based of a lie, the lie itself allowed for the social issues Ishgard had to develop.

[IoannesBellator]

@IoannesBellator, As for Thordan, he dissipated after his defeat. My guess is his ritual screwed him over and consumed his own Aether. Note that the same happens to his Heaven's Ward and we barely touch most of them.

Maybe it's just bad and lazy writing because they don't know what to do with the Archbishop if he survived. It would have been awkward on the ride back to Ishgard, and it's not likely that the Archbishop would have changed his mind. "It's Euthanasia time, gramps." I would also have liked to see some resolution on Aymeric and Thordan's relationship as father and son, even if they end up brutally killing each other or something. There's something disturbing about how everything was happy and nice at the end, as if there's no sort of emotional toll or something- did Aymeric really hate his father that much that he was all smiles when Ishgard became a part of the Eorzean Alliance again?

As a side note, I rather liked Alphinaud's character development before the expansion.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Well, personally, Divine Right doesnt sit well with me no matter who claims it.

Neither does "Divine Bloodlines" for much of the same reasons. So I guess i'm anti-Japenese eh?

No, I just recognize that those tend to be go to answers for incompetent rulers who can't otherwise justify rule.

Richard Cor de Leon didn't need to convence his people that he was a good king, they believed it all on their own.

So, this.misunderstanding is part cultural diffrences and mostly biased opposition infavor of one's own sect.

I guess as a Protostant American, "God Kings" and "Divine Apointment" just dont sit well with me. As opposition towards The Orthodoxy's system seems to rub you the wrong way.

I have no problem as I'm nutralist in it all IRL and in game.... I'd have sided with Gaius and Garlemauld in the Pretorium.

[jomoru]

I have no problem as I'm nutralist in it all IRL and in game.... I'd have sided with Gaius and Garlemauld in the Pretorium.

So you'd have litterally sided with Facist genocidal madmen. The reason you can't side with him is He's objectively WRONG.

[Kaiser-Ace]

So you'd have litterally sided with Facist genocidal madmen. The reason you can't side with him is He's objectively WRONG.

Actually, Gaius had valid points. The Primals, The Twelve, The True Eikons, they all have remarkable similarities that it's hard not to question if what he said was right. I may have even sided with Elidibues if given the opportunity because I'm not a one dimensional "Good Guy". Even IRL I describe my self as Chaotic Good.

Also, fun fact, Fascism is a belief in Nationalism, Militarism, and National Self Sufficiency. Totalitarianism is not necessarily an aspect of Fascism while Socialism and Marxist Communism are the exact opposites of it. If Capitalism is the Right Wing and Socialism is the Left Wing then Fascism is the Far Right while Marxist Communism is the Far Left.

I'm a self described Chaotic Good, Fascist, that does indeed believe in social darwinism because capitalism doesn't work without it. Why Fascism is associated with the Nazis I'll never know since they were Socialists and, as stated before, the opposite of fascists.

But now we're getting into the real world's issues and ergo breaking The MMO Creed, so I'll leave it where it sits and move on.

Now how we're we comparing Ishguard to modern corruption again?