NIN's It's time to stand up

[Craiger]

Question: MNK and DRG do higher DPS than NIN in theory, but is it the case that the damage NIN boost's the raid by (Goad/Trick Attack), would make up for their lower DPS? I would think MNK and DRG had the highest individual damage, with some raid utility, but NIN's raid utility would make up the gap by increasing the party's damage noticeably. If they made NIN on par with MNK and DRG individually, then when you account for Goad/Trick Attack, wouldn't they be ahead of every other DPS??

Trick Attack is +10% raid-wide damage for 17%(10s/60s) of the time.
Battle Litany is +15% raid-wide crit rate for 11% of the time (20s/180s).

TA's effect is guaranteed, not RNG, whereas DRG's is RNG so the average to total damage boost from Litany is probably much lower than TA. That being said, since NIN boost every other player's DPS substantially every minute, wouldn't that added DPS technically (from SE's point of view) belong to NIN's presence, and thus not necessitate a buff? They probably balanced NIN DRG MNK such that their individual damage+raid boost potential is about the same, just that the ratio of Individual vs Raid boost varies between the 3 melee.

Trick Attack makes up for the extra DPS that MNK gets, but bringing a DRG will increase your BRD's/MCH's DPS by a lot, and then battle litany on top of that. So overall, DRG is the top DPS.

DRG's are not miles ahead or anything though.

Increasing NIN's DPS up the other others would make them completely OP.

EDIT: In other words, if they were to buff anything for the 3 melee DPS, it would be slight buffs to both MNK and NIN... but it would have to be slight enough to not completely catch up to DRG, because NIN and MNK at least have some other utility more than just bringing high DPS to your group.

[Alahra]

Question: MNK and DRG do higher DPS than NIN in theory, but is it the case that the damage NIN boost's the raid by (Goad/Trick Attack), would make up for their lower DPS?

Yes, yes, it does. Which is why NINs have been on just about all of the early clears for Alexander (Savage).
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[Jonnycbad]

Annoying how everyone only looks at their job's individual damage and not how their job boosts the raid's damage.

[Sigmakan]

Only adjustments NIN needs right now is TP consumption and AoE.

Their AoE is in a real sad state currently.

[Jonnycbad]

I thought kassatsu+doton's dot + death blossom spam would be more or less equal to a drg's doom spikes and occasional dragon fire dive.

[MrCookTM]

I thought kassatsu+doton's dot + death blossom spam would be more or less equal to a drg's doom spikes and occasional dragon fire dive.

Welcome to level 60, drg has geirskogul now. ^^

[Ixsiehn]

Eh, geirskogul is only a single 200 potency oGCD in AoE once every 60 seconds you cannot refresh BotD during AoE phases, nothing to write home about. its just that Doomspike spam is just better tahn death blossom spam in terms of raw burst AoE in terms of TP efficiency and damage done, although doom spike is in a line. DRGs still have better AoE than NIN atm though.

I also disagree with completely ignoring the category of "utility" and think of "trick attack" and "battle litany" as DPS. They are overall "utility", and personal DPS is another matter of balance.

Balance comes in a form where you take into account every aspect of a class, not just seeing "TA" as a DPS boost to a ninja or disembowel as a DPS boost to the DRG. Mantra in a sense boosts a MNKs dps if you see it as healers needing to heal less and DPS more.

[MrCookTM]

Eh, geirskogul is only a single 200 potency oGCD in AoE once every 60 seconds you cannot refresh BotD during AoE phases, nothing to write home about. its just that Doomspike spam is just better tahn death blossom spam in terms of raw burst AoE in terms of TP efficiency and damage done, although doom spike is in a line. DRGs still have better AoE than NIN atm though.

I also disagree with completely ignoring the category of "utility" and think of "trick attack" and "battle litany" as DPS. They are overall "utility", and personal DPS is another matter of balance.

Balance comes in a form where you take into account every aspect of a class, not just seeing "TA" as a DPS boost to a ninja or disembowel as a DPS boost to the DRG. Mantra in a sense boosts a MNKs dps if you see it as healers needing to heal less and DPS more.

I'm not talking about dungeon trash, in a dungeon both drg and nin aoe are perfectly fine since shit dies within seconds anyway and there's enough time for tp regen between pulls. In my book only raiding scenarios matter for job balance and in A2s drg will do his ST ratation and refresh BotD as usual, while getting a free, self sustained 200 potency per minute on every mob it hits, on top of DFD whenever it's ready. That's much more than Nin has, which is the reason why Nin's usually do Gobwalking in A2s.

[Juen]

Only major issue with buffing NIN would be the need to change MNK right after, seeing as MNKs are already the least favorable class to bring in raids atm, if they buffed NIN, it would also gimp MNKs even more than ever.

Of course, with that said, there are so many things they could do for NIN.

1. Obviously the most easiest thing SE could do to buff NIN (Revert nerf)
2. Make it so TA still applies even when directional is missed (This one is big, and SHOULD be applied since its not for personal dps anyway and only positional that is still heavily punished)
3. For me personally, I want SE to remove smokescreen and design a new and MUCH more useful skill.

Remember, after NIN buff, then there would also be threads QQing about MNK buffs next. Thus, the cycle goes around and around about nerfs and buffs.

[Kaybye]

Honestly I don't understand how many ninjas are happy with where they are at, assuming you actually have a dps mentality. We all rolled melee dps classes with the assumption they would do competitive dps. Ninja right now does not do competitive dps in ST or AoE in the current tier of raiding. Not only that, but their utility is overrated.

People are going to disagree and say two things: 1) Ninja do have competitive dps! 2) BUT they have amazing utility!

1) Ninja do not have competitive dps in the highest current tier of raiding. I am not sure how people can argue this with the parse sites now available. You want examples?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...sLaoo/pubhtml#

One Savage DPS Leaderboard with hundreds of parses:
A1S - Not a single ninja in the top 30
A2S - Not a single ninja in the top 65
A3S - Not a single ninja in the top 12

There are others that I have seen as well. If you have a dps mentality, I mean really a dps mindset, you would not be content with never being able to win a parse, regardless of your level of play.

2) I won't argue that ninja's bring some utility, but other than trick attack, the rest are completely overrated. Goad is extremely situational now and used pretty much only in AoE situations for certain classes. Ironically ninja has just about the worst TP of any of the classes in the game. Shadewalker is situational as well, and frankly not even needed. Tanks did just fine before it existed. Granted one of its limited uses does include allowing a tank to start in dps stance. Yet with content being out geared this is completely irrelevant other than for epeen.

People will argue that ninja's are in a good spot because they were in world first clear groups. To you guys I would say that all three melee dps jobs are viable in Savage now. Only two can actually be the top dps on any of the fights though.