45 second 15% Balance versus 75 second 10% Balance ... which is more effective?

[Ghishlain]

Best answer - stuff is situational.

Extended Balance will give you more overall output than Enhanced Balance but if you need more output faster, Enhanced will give you that. If a mechanic is going to occur within 45s that causes a boss to go invulnerable for a decent portion of time (Oppressor jumping), then a decent part of Extended will be lost and Enhanced will be better.

It's up to the AST to determine what is "best" at the given situation. It's one of the unconscious rewards for playing the class well.

[Eudyptes]

Because for one: I wasn't quoting you.

Quoting me is irrelevant when you're making an absolute statement.

Secondly: Read the last sentence of that post

During burst Enhanced will outperform. It is also more effective, but my point was that your absolute doesn't work here.

And lastly

Burst is normal conditions. I'm not talking about fights where there are extra damage phazes. I'm talking about standard dps burst. Which I do every fight on my nin. When I pop B4B/IR/TA, then go down my rotation and weave in all my oGCD dps skills, I should get more out of that 15% dmg buff than 10% which lingers after everything wears off but doesn't last long enough for most of it to come back off CD.

Not all classes burst the same though, so this may not be the case for everyone.

[Eudyptes]

The OP asked for "normal" conditions.

What I said was under normal conditions. How are you not understanding that? Ast is by default a complex class, but it's not insanely complex. You don't need to keep track of everyone's CD's, just the top dps's CDs since they are the one who will get the most out of balance to begin with. You don't even have to know all their CD timers, just certain patterns which can almost always be given away by keeping track on 1 CD. Most dps rotations in this game do not sync up 100%, but there is almost always repeating patterns in the rotation that is easy enough to make mental notes of. Most of it can done at a glance even in pugs (assuming they aren't hitting buttons at random), and is made significantly easier if it's not a pug and you can communicate with your group.

Furthermore, there needs to be an assumption that there is at least some type of card control to even have this discussion. Most people utilize spread (at least I know I do) to get some form of control over exactly these situations in raids.

I also hate to break it to you, but knowing fight mechanics are also normal. Throwing out cards willy-nilly on CD isn't always the best tactic. If you know there is a semi-random element that will take people out of the fight, it's better to hold the card for a few seconds to make sure the person targeted isn't the one you plan to use the card on.

Feel free to write up all the essays you want, but they will remain wrong if you only look at the buffs in a vacuum.

Edit: I think the root of the problem here is that OP is asking for "normal" in a class where normal doesn't exist. I mean, it's an rng mechanic. Ast requires more knowledge of the specifics of other classes if you want to min/max to this degree. You need to know who benefits from what the most and when, while applying that to real time situations.

If you are not going to min/max than this point is moot, and you just need to know who likely benefits the most from dps cards in general and just use whatever you get when you get it.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

snip

If you have no idea or control over what the others are doing, then how does your "burst" argument hold water?

As for whatever control you mentioned, spread aside, you have no control over any mechanic or transitions. I never mentioned you have no idea when they'll happen - Unlike the other points mentioned before. Spreading cards aside from Balance for that particular transition, for example, is the only control you have. But this comes with even more factors which I will omit for this post. As for the indirect insult from you pointing out that I don't learn fights, I'll overlook that for now.

[Eudyptes]

If you have no idea or control over what the others are doing, then how does your "burst" argument hold water?

What are you talking about? I literally just told you how to have an idea of what others are doing. Understand how x dps class works and pay attention to their buffs. Most dps classes have patterns they abide by, including when it comes to CDs. If you are using spread on balance whenever it's up (specifically to hold for an RR version), you can decide which card to burn as you draw based on an educated guess as to where they are in said pattern (by counting B4B's and/or paying attention to the fight for example).

If you are just going to burn whatever comes up first, or just alternate RR and draw, then this topic is moot cause it doesn't matter which is better at specific times.

As for whatever control you mentioned, spread aside, you have no control over any mechanic or transitions. I never mentioned you have no idea when they'll happen - Unlike the other points mentioned before. Spreading cards aside from Balance for that particular transition, for example, is the only control you have. But this comes with even more factors which I will omit for this post.

You don't have direct control over mechanics, but you do have control over knowing when something is coming and preparing for it. That's actually something I had to learn on nin early so that I didn't have my TA CD sync'd poorly with mechanics.

As for the indirect insult from you pointing out that I don't learn fights, I'll overlook that for now.

I think you're reading far too much into something that was never implied.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I did split up the list in "do not know" and "do not control"

[Eudyptes]

I did split up the list in "do not know" and "do not control"

My point was that in either case there is enough that you can know that you can plan around it/for it appropriately.

Either way this is, for the most part, an argument where neither of us are right or wrong because trying to define "normal" on an rng system is inherently flawed. The only thing I truly disagree with you about is extended always being more potent than enhanced, as during burst enhanced will give you more bang for your buck. With that said, I did mention back on page 1 that extended will be better more often. So if you absolutely have to choose one or the other to go with all the time, it should be extended.

Well, really it should be expanded 95% of the time.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I'll just drop this here with a summary and go to bed. I'll let you draw the conclusion here.



Simplified damage to average damage rather than depending on rotation. Used dragoon as base for buffs. Differences on picture are as follows:
With both time buffs
Without b4b: 9.49 DPS difference
With b4b: 1.03 DPS difference

With only Time dilation
Without b4b: 11.07 DPS difference
with b4b: 2.61 DPS difference

Without either
Without b4b: 15.81 DPS difference
with b4b: 7.35 DPS difference

[Eudyptes]

I'll just drop this here with a summary and go to bed. I'll let you draw the conclusion here.

So, you notice how the gap gets significantly less when B4B is involved? Now consider that B4B is not the only CD or oGCD skill being used and the gap should not only get closer, but even swap which buff is better. Also consider that not all jobs are created equal, and some will benefit more from enhanced, while others less.

I do agree that most of the time extended is better. I said as much before we even started debating. I just don't agree that it's better "under any circumstances".

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

So, you notice how the gap gets significantly less when B4B is involved? Now consider that B4B is not the only CD or oGCD skill being used and the gap should not only get closer, but even swap which buff is better. Also consider that not all jobs are created equal, and some will benefit more from enhanced, while others less.

I do agree that most of the time extended is better. I said as much before we even started debating. I just don't agree that it's better "under any circumstances".

The gap gets bigger once time dilation and/or celestial opposition isn't involved either. And this is only in case of dragoon where blood for blood is at 30% and available rather quickly. If we to consider raging strikes instead (bard, black mage, summomer, machinist), which has a 180s CD, the chances are much greater that this won't be up at all during the duration of either.