AST, MCH, DRK and their failure as new jobs at HW launch

[Zeonx]

Yes at launch the jobs were a mess and pretty much being fixed now your point?

[Ryaz]

I agree that my only problem with MCH is that it feels like a Bard clone. Ammo should have been much more than a bandaid for our RNG. It should have been more like Dark Arts for DRK, giving different bonus abilities for different attacks, allowing us to support the party more though buffs and debuffs. Our only really "needed" utility that's unique to us (and Bard) is the MP/TP regen. Ninja also bring vulnerability (though it's nice that it stacks with MCH) and I have yet to really see a scenario where that 5% damage reduction makes a difference.

Support in this game is unfortunately half-assed. A good support class makes up for its loss of dps at all times through things like party buffs or enemy debuffs instead of one or two abilities that are used only in the highest content (and fairly useless in anything else).

[Eul]

you don't need to heal them to max health, but "only" to heal them for as much as they have in their HP pool. It's just a matter of "can you dish out 14-18k heals in 10 seconds ?". The 3 of them CAN do it.

I doubt other can catch up. What if the DRK get banged by mobs? 3 times Lustrate? Nope, won't catch up. Spam Benefit 2 and emergency click heal? Nope, won't catch up too.

[Welsper59]

The three jobs are fun for what they are. They did a good job of laying out the foundations and, over time, will only make them better. The issues surrounding them and all being under-powered initially is an example of a fault that surrounds many creators of anything. They try to innovate within archaic structuring. Specifically, I'm referring to trying to be different while maintaining a STRICT holy trinity formula. They want jobs to feel different, but they refuse to break the trinity formula. To their credit, in order to do that, it'd require a huge movement to a near total restructuring of the combat system, which isn't exactly feasible at this stage of the game.

When you follow a narrow trinity formula and you base combat difficulty around it, innovation behind what you can do to make jobs feel different gets less and less for the more jobs you design. Eventually, you create an identity crisis like what BRD and MCH had (and will continue to have as time goes on). AST suffered this as well, because devs felt their buffs to be powerful enough to override a need for stronger healing proficiency. Objectively, that implies they thought that in order to be equal in healing to SCH and WHM, AST should do... less... healing... because they get more variety of buffs that don't heal... yeah, good one.

Balance is the name of the game when you have a trinity style format. The more you try to break away from it, the more you fear the potential of things like temporary "support" skills/spells to be overpowered (they really aren't in most cases) and the less you feel said job should do regarding their actual role in the trinity. It's an unfortunate reality when it comes to this, but it always happens, without fail. Balance will come over time, and that's really the main saving grace, as we've all seen by example with the new trio of jobs (which will continue to be further improved upon).

[Duelle]

I agree that my only problem with MCH is that it feels like a Bard clone. Ammo should have been much more than a bandaid for our RNG. It should have been more like Dark Arts for DRK, giving different bonus abilities for different attacks

I'd rather see ammo become a resource that gates certain shots. Basically a resource that starts at full and slowly regenerates over time, with certain attacks speeding the recovery of ammo or generating ammo units upon use. Ammo would thus become a pacing mechanism for the job while making it more than just free potency + RNG nullifier.

They try to innovate within archaic structuring. Specifically, I'm referring to trying to be different while maintaining a STRICT holy trinity formula. They want jobs to feel different, but they refuse to break the trinity formula.

The problem is more connected to self-imposed limitations rather than any flaw of the trinity. For example, you don't have varying resources like Rage or Energy or Combo Points or Runic Power or Runes or Chi units or Soul Embers or Fulmination Stacks because every job has to have TP and MP as resources. Blood of the Dragon is a clear indication of this, since it could have easily been turned into a resource bar for DRG but was instead implemented as a timer with modifiers.

Eventually, you create an identity crisis like what BRD and MCH had (and will continue to have as time goes on).

You're pointing the finger at the wrong thing. The devs didn't aim to make BRD and MCH mechanically diverse. If that had been the case, MCH would have been designed with cast times from the ground up and BRD would have remained as it was in ARR with a couple of new tools added to its arsenal (thus WM and GB wouldn't exist; they simply wouldn't be needed by either job).

AST suffered this as well, because devs felt their buffs to be powerful enough to override a need for stronger healing proficiency. Objectively, that implies they thought that in order to be equal in healing to SCH and WHM, AST should do... less... healing... because they get more variety of buffs that don't heal... yeah, good one.

That doesn't really have anything to do with the trinity. This was a design choice that simply didn't pan out when launched (granted, I could have told you that an RNG mechanic as part of the kit of a healer was gonna be lackluster; it's sort of why it didn't even cross my mind when I suggested Astrologist a long time ago).

------------------

In short, you're barking up the wrong tree. The trinity doesn't have anything to do with any similarities between the new jobs and the old jobs. Those are the result of other things.