Heavensword 2* Red Scrip Crafting Rotation

[Sethira]

This one is designed with different goal, one extra touch and low cross class skill dependency
The big hinder is less chance to take ToT and can only BT/PT when got ToT

My craftsmanship just let me get one extra touch

I can appreciate the idea of making use of craftsmanship you already have, but pushing for it even as blacksmith is not necessary. Innovation and Ingenuity II are still not as good as just having more stacks so the CP is better spent on basic/precise touches.

[AishaNymph]

For rath's rotation, BSM can only choose one of the three skills (reclaim, innov, ToT)

If take ToT, it will most likely allow you to use more PT/BT but no reclaim to protect (well.. 90% of the time) you from failing too many HT
If take innov, you can use one PT/BT or innov , no reclaim
If take reclaim, you can only use one PT/BT

I personally will stick to rath's rotation for my other classes but most likely will switch to the name/band for my BSM

[Roth_Trailfinder]

Innovation and Ingenuity II are still not as good as just having more stacks so the CP is better spent on basic/precise touches.

Two things.

First, I have not tested lately, but how much Quality does Ingenuity 2 actually provide? My tests had shown it did not bump BB (or any other Quality move) at all. When did it start?

Two, Innovation is BETTER than 1 additional stack of Inner Quiet. Two or more are better than saving for Innovation, but if it is a choice of 1 more or Innovation, take the Innovation.

[Sethira]

The difference can be insignificant past 10 stacks because you'll have so much quality anyway but before that exchanging Innovation will do much more considering the uncertainty of Hasty Touch. Test done on beta.loksyt.net:

(7 stacks, 3665 quality) great strides + byregot

7 stacks with Innovation = 2991 quality gained
8 stacks with no Innovation = 3398 quality gained

The basic touch used instead gives some extra quality that would have been a hasty touch, but the point of using it was to get safe stacks since it's more crucial to land these touches at higher stacks. Relying on Innovation when hasty touches have failed instead of wisely using that CP on guaranteed stacks will net you less quality overall. This also applies to Ingenuity as it gives a boost like Innovation but not enough to justify it's CP cost when considering what I just said. As far as quality is concerned it's a limp Innovation.

The actual Byregot is slightly weaker by 100/200 quality.

[AishaNymph]

snip

Ingenuity 2 lower the recipe lv and have no effect on recipe that has a lower lv than yours
Maybe your tested recipe lv was too low ?

From the simulator, IG2 gives 28.1269% quality boost for a quality action in 2star recipe

And for Innov, if we are sorely compare it with IQ stack. Yes, it give a larger quality boost.
But when account in the quality provided by the touch which built the IQ stack. Innov fall behind

On a side note, I have came up with a brute force rotation for my BSM.

Nothing fancy, just straight up Marker's mark , IG2+ 5x CS2
Cost 38CP and 50 durability for progression
10/14 FS succeed is required , got 9 HT attempts and 2 guaranteed BT/PT



I have tested ingame, 899 craftsmanship gives 214 progression under IG2 while the simulator only gives 213.
So apparently 7 more craftsmanship will allow me to fail 5FS and I can consider to move IQ to FS phase and open up the chance to take ToT.

[KinGurie]

The difference can be insignificant past 10 stacks because you'll have so much quality anyway but before that exchanging Innovation will do much more considering the uncertainty of Hasty Touch. Test done on beta.loksyt.net:

(7 stacks, 3665 quality) great strides + byregot

7 stacks with Innovation = 2991 quality gained
8 stacks with no Innovation = 3398 quality gained

The basic touch used instead gives some extra quality that would have been a hasty touch, but the point of using it was to get safe stacks since it's more crucial to land these touches at higher stacks. Relying on Innovation when hasty touches have failed instead of wisely using that CP on guaranteed stacks will net you less quality overall.

And for Innov, if we are sorely compare it with IQ stack. Yes, it give a larger quality boost.
But when account in the quality provided by the touch which built the IQ stack. Innov fall behind

Both of these assessments sound like they imply that choosing Basic Touch over Innovation is superior. This is incorrect in most real use cases that involve 1-star or 2-star crafting... which is what is being discussed here, right?

There are several reasons why these assessments are misleading:

1. A situation where you are choosing between innovation or basic touch means that you have 10 durability and 18 CP available to you. In both quotes above, the 10 durability is not addressed numerically for the innovation use case. What's really going on are three possibilities:

a.) (20% chance): failed hasty touch + innovation
b.) (80% chance): successful hasty touch + innovation
c.) (100% chance): successful basic touch, no innovation

It's certainly true that the basic touch route will provide more quality (ballpark ~100-200) more than a failed hasty touch + innovation, but...



2. If that ~100-200 increase in quality isn't going to put you at 100% HQ (or an acceptable % chance to HQ), then you need to consider whether the hasty touch risk is worth it. Unless you start with oodles of HQ materials (2400 starting quality or more, depending on your gear), you're going to be running with a hasty touch rotation... in which case this is really a hasty touch vs. basic touch consideration that should be decided on earlier in the rotation, not at the end.



3. If you're going to use innovation, your rotation should be set up so that it is applied to a touch before the beregot's:

Steady Hand II
(open / Ingenuity)
Innovation
(Basic/Hasty) Touch
Great Strides
Beregot's Blessing

In most real use cases where there's some planning ahead, you're going to want to count the innovation-boosted touch versus not-innovation touch beforehand.


4. Less common, but still worth mentioning: If you're running a tight rotation (ex: a speed-based brand rotation), running innovation may allow you to squeeze a second comfort zone in, which can convert a hasty touch to a basic touch if you have four extra unused CP.

[AishaNymph]

snip

That’s a good point, I didn’t account in the durability cost in my post.

[Sethira]

If you're going to use innovation, your rotation should be set up so that it is applied to a touch before the beregot's

The whole point of my post was to demonstrate that stacks of inner quiet procured from safe basic touches (on the second steady hand II specifically) are superior to relying on Innovation to boost either the Byregot's Blessing or Hasty Touches in your example (where CP is being wasted for not much gain). Also, the act of powering a touch with Innovation before Byregot is not new information. It doesn't give numbers significant enough to change my argument and takes the away the option to react to a Good sooner with great strides.

Both of these assessments sound like they imply that choosing Basic Touch over Innovation is superior.

It's not an implication if I've explicitly said it.

[KinGurie]

The whole point of my post was to demonstrate that stacks of inner quiet procured from safe basic touches (on the second steady hand II specifically) are superior to relying on Innovation to boost either the Byregot's Blessing or Hasty Touches in your example (where CP is being wasted for not much gain).

I feel like your post is also not rooted in actual applicable experience. What's your definition of "superior" here? Is it the few hundred quality that you're guaranteed to get? Most of the time this is not worth much due to how the chance HQ is not linear, which I'll show below. I already felt that hasty + innovation is better in my past experiences, but I went ahead and did comparisons on astral oil yesterday to double-check with actual crafting. An innovation-based rotation is better in general.

Also, the act of powering a touch with Innovation before Byregot is not new information. It doesn't give numbers significant enough to change my argument and takes the away the option to react to a Good sooner with great strides.

I'll use your numbers:

(7 stacks, 3665 quality) great strides + byregot

7 stacks with Innovation = 2991 quality gained
8 stacks with no Innovation = 3398 quality gained

I can replicate this with the settings you've posted earlier:
Control: 806
Starting Quality: 1500
Item: a 2-star craft

The starting point for a fair comparison here where CP, durability, and chance of success are accounted for shouldn't start at 7 IQ stacks and 3665 quality, but instead should start at 6 IQ stacks and 3178 quality.


Possibility #1: Safe basic touches (100% chance):
Steady Hand II
(+487) Basic Touch -> 7 IQ stacks
(+540) Basic Touch -> 8 IQ stacks
Great Strides
(+2858) Beregot's Blessing
Total gain: +3885 quality (+3398 from 7 IQ stacks, noted in your post)
Durability used: 30
CP used: 117
Result: 7063 / 9430 total item quality, which is a 45% chance to HQ.

Extra note: Chance for a "Good" condition for the Beregot's Blessing _if_ you have an additional 14 CP to Observe (disregarding that this doesn't make this an equal comparison... anyone have this number for 2-star crafts? It's quite low.)



Possibility #2: Failed hasty touch and innovation (20% chance):
Steady Hand II
(+0) Failed Hasty Touch -> still 6 IQ stacks
Innovation
(+623) Basic Touch -> 7 IQ stacks
Great Strides
(+2991) Beregot's Blessing
Total gain: +3614 quality
Durability used: 30
CP used: 117
Result: 6792 / 9430 total item quality, which is 32% chance to HQ

Extra note: The actual quality loss from the safe basic touches in this example is 271 quality, but the % chance to HQ is what really matters.



Possibility #3: Successful hasty touch and innovation (80% chance):
Steady Hand II
(+487) Successful Hasty Touch -> 7 IQ stacks
Innovation
(+679) Basic Touch -> 8 IQ stacks
Great Strides
(+3540) Beregot's Blessing
Total gain: +4706 quality
Durability used: 30
CP used: 117
Result: 7884 / 9430 total item quality, which is 78% chance to HQ



If you choose safe basic touches in this example, your expected chance to HQ in a long run is: (100% * 45%) = 45% chance to HQ

If you choose hasty touch + innovation in this example, your expected chance to HQ in a long run is (rounded down): (20% * 32%) + (80% * 78%) = 68% chance to HQ

The math gets slightly fuzzier when you account for the additional "Good" condition chance. Even if we're super generous and say it's a 20% chance to 100% HQ, the safe basic touches is still inferior.

Let's say you change your starting point from 6 IQ stacks to 7 IQ stacks. The numbers still come out to (100% * 82%)=82% versus (20% * 78%)+(80% * 95%) = 91%.
At a starting point of 8 IQ stacks, safe basic touches will result in 100% HQ. Hasty + innovation comes out to (20%*95%)+(80%*100%)=99%.
At a starting point of 9 IQ stacks, both methods will HQ 100%.

The numbers here match my feeling from experience: Only in rare situations will basic touch be better than hasty + innovation, and even then, not by much (...which I noted in my first response in point #2 that you chose not to include in your response).