Heavensword 2* Red Scrip Crafting Rotation

[Sethira]

The difference can be insignificant past 10 stacks because you'll have so much quality anyway but before that exchanging Innovation will do much more considering the uncertainty of Hasty Touch. Test done on beta.loksyt.net:

(7 stacks, 3665 quality) great strides + byregot

7 stacks with Innovation = 2991 quality gained
8 stacks with no Innovation = 3398 quality gained

The basic touch used instead gives some extra quality that would have been a hasty touch, but the point of using it was to get safe stacks since it's more crucial to land these touches at higher stacks. Relying on Innovation when hasty touches have failed instead of wisely using that CP on guaranteed stacks will net you less quality overall. This also applies to Ingenuity as it gives a boost like Innovation but not enough to justify it's CP cost when considering what I just said. As far as quality is concerned it's a limp Innovation.

The actual Byregot is slightly weaker by 100/200 quality.

[AishaNymph]

snip

Ingenuity 2 lower the recipe lv and have no effect on recipe that has a lower lv than yours
Maybe your tested recipe lv was too low ?

From the simulator, IG2 gives 28.1269% quality boost for a quality action in 2star recipe

And for Innov, if we are sorely compare it with IQ stack. Yes, it give a larger quality boost.
But when account in the quality provided by the touch which built the IQ stack. Innov fall behind

On a side note, I have came up with a brute force rotation for my BSM.

Nothing fancy, just straight up Marker's mark , IG2+ 5x CS2
Cost 38CP and 50 durability for progression
10/14 FS succeed is required , got 9 HT attempts and 2 guaranteed BT/PT



I have tested ingame, 899 craftsmanship gives 214 progression under IG2 while the simulator only gives 213.
So apparently 7 more craftsmanship will allow me to fail 5FS and I can consider to move IQ to FS phase and open up the chance to take ToT.

[KinGurie]

The difference can be insignificant past 10 stacks because you'll have so much quality anyway but before that exchanging Innovation will do much more considering the uncertainty of Hasty Touch. Test done on beta.loksyt.net:

(7 stacks, 3665 quality) great strides + byregot

7 stacks with Innovation = 2991 quality gained
8 stacks with no Innovation = 3398 quality gained

The basic touch used instead gives some extra quality that would have been a hasty touch, but the point of using it was to get safe stacks since it's more crucial to land these touches at higher stacks. Relying on Innovation when hasty touches have failed instead of wisely using that CP on guaranteed stacks will net you less quality overall.

And for Innov, if we are sorely compare it with IQ stack. Yes, it give a larger quality boost.
But when account in the quality provided by the touch which built the IQ stack. Innov fall behind

Both of these assessments sound like they imply that choosing Basic Touch over Innovation is superior. This is incorrect in most real use cases that involve 1-star or 2-star crafting... which is what is being discussed here, right?

There are several reasons why these assessments are misleading:

1. A situation where you are choosing between innovation or basic touch means that you have 10 durability and 18 CP available to you. In both quotes above, the 10 durability is not addressed numerically for the innovation use case. What's really going on are three possibilities:

a.) (20% chance): failed hasty touch + innovation
b.) (80% chance): successful hasty touch + innovation
c.) (100% chance): successful basic touch, no innovation

It's certainly true that the basic touch route will provide more quality (ballpark ~100-200) more than a failed hasty touch + innovation, but...



2. If that ~100-200 increase in quality isn't going to put you at 100% HQ (or an acceptable % chance to HQ), then you need to consider whether the hasty touch risk is worth it. Unless you start with oodles of HQ materials (2400 starting quality or more, depending on your gear), you're going to be running with a hasty touch rotation... in which case this is really a hasty touch vs. basic touch consideration that should be decided on earlier in the rotation, not at the end.



3. If you're going to use innovation, your rotation should be set up so that it is applied to a touch before the beregot's:

Steady Hand II
(open / Ingenuity)
Innovation
(Basic/Hasty) Touch
Great Strides
Beregot's Blessing

In most real use cases where there's some planning ahead, you're going to want to count the innovation-boosted touch versus not-innovation touch beforehand.


4. Less common, but still worth mentioning: If you're running a tight rotation (ex: a speed-based brand rotation), running innovation may allow you to squeeze a second comfort zone in, which can convert a hasty touch to a basic touch if you have four extra unused CP.

[AishaNymph]

snip

That’s a good point, I didn’t account in the durability cost in my post.

[Sethira]

If you're going to use innovation, your rotation should be set up so that it is applied to a touch before the beregot's

The whole point of my post was to demonstrate that stacks of inner quiet procured from safe basic touches (on the second steady hand II specifically) are superior to relying on Innovation to boost either the Byregot's Blessing or Hasty Touches in your example (where CP is being wasted for not much gain). Also, the act of powering a touch with Innovation before Byregot is not new information. It doesn't give numbers significant enough to change my argument and takes the away the option to react to a Good sooner with great strides.

Both of these assessments sound like they imply that choosing Basic Touch over Innovation is superior.

It's not an implication if I've explicitly said it.

[KinGurie]

The whole point of my post was to demonstrate that stacks of inner quiet procured from safe basic touches (on the second steady hand II specifically) are superior to relying on Innovation to boost either the Byregot's Blessing or Hasty Touches in your example (where CP is being wasted for not much gain).

I feel like your post is also not rooted in actual applicable experience. What's your definition of "superior" here? Is it the few hundred quality that you're guaranteed to get? Most of the time this is not worth much due to how the chance HQ is not linear, which I'll show below. I already felt that hasty + innovation is better in my past experiences, but I went ahead and did comparisons on astral oil yesterday to double-check with actual crafting. An innovation-based rotation is better in general.

Also, the act of powering a touch with Innovation before Byregot is not new information. It doesn't give numbers significant enough to change my argument and takes the away the option to react to a Good sooner with great strides.

I'll use your numbers:

(7 stacks, 3665 quality) great strides + byregot

7 stacks with Innovation = 2991 quality gained
8 stacks with no Innovation = 3398 quality gained

I can replicate this with the settings you've posted earlier:
Control: 806
Starting Quality: 1500
Item: a 2-star craft

The starting point for a fair comparison here where CP, durability, and chance of success are accounted for shouldn't start at 7 IQ stacks and 3665 quality, but instead should start at 6 IQ stacks and 3178 quality.


Possibility #1: Safe basic touches (100% chance):
Steady Hand II
(+487) Basic Touch -> 7 IQ stacks
(+540) Basic Touch -> 8 IQ stacks
Great Strides
(+2858) Beregot's Blessing
Total gain: +3885 quality (+3398 from 7 IQ stacks, noted in your post)
Durability used: 30
CP used: 117
Result: 7063 / 9430 total item quality, which is a 45% chance to HQ.

Extra note: Chance for a "Good" condition for the Beregot's Blessing _if_ you have an additional 14 CP to Observe (disregarding that this doesn't make this an equal comparison... anyone have this number for 2-star crafts? It's quite low.)



Possibility #2: Failed hasty touch and innovation (20% chance):
Steady Hand II
(+0) Failed Hasty Touch -> still 6 IQ stacks
Innovation
(+623) Basic Touch -> 7 IQ stacks
Great Strides
(+2991) Beregot's Blessing
Total gain: +3614 quality
Durability used: 30
CP used: 117
Result: 6792 / 9430 total item quality, which is 32% chance to HQ

Extra note: The actual quality loss from the safe basic touches in this example is 271 quality, but the % chance to HQ is what really matters.



Possibility #3: Successful hasty touch and innovation (80% chance):
Steady Hand II
(+487) Successful Hasty Touch -> 7 IQ stacks
Innovation
(+679) Basic Touch -> 8 IQ stacks
Great Strides
(+3540) Beregot's Blessing
Total gain: +4706 quality
Durability used: 30
CP used: 117
Result: 7884 / 9430 total item quality, which is 78% chance to HQ



If you choose safe basic touches in this example, your expected chance to HQ in a long run is: (100% * 45%) = 45% chance to HQ

If you choose hasty touch + innovation in this example, your expected chance to HQ in a long run is (rounded down): (20% * 32%) + (80% * 78%) = 68% chance to HQ

The math gets slightly fuzzier when you account for the additional "Good" condition chance. Even if we're super generous and say it's a 20% chance to 100% HQ, the safe basic touches is still inferior.

Let's say you change your starting point from 6 IQ stacks to 7 IQ stacks. The numbers still come out to (100% * 82%)=82% versus (20% * 78%)+(80% * 95%) = 91%.
At a starting point of 8 IQ stacks, safe basic touches will result in 100% HQ. Hasty + innovation comes out to (20%*95%)+(80%*100%)=99%.
At a starting point of 9 IQ stacks, both methods will HQ 100%.

The numbers here match my feeling from experience: Only in rare situations will basic touch be better than hasty + innovation, and even then, not by much (...which I noted in my first response in point #2 that you chose not to include in your response).

[Sethira]

a lot of things

Just to confirm something - do you think I mean to replace all Hasty Touches with Basic Touch? Or am I right in thinking we're talking about optimizing post master's mend II?

I really hope it's the latter :l

[Katlyna]

Nice to see you all enjoying end game crafting and theory crafting with so much energy. Per what Sethira and KinGurie did a great job of highlighting: Stacks achieved with basic touch will grant more quality than Hasty + Innovation roughly at 7 and less stacks. At 8 stacks the two methods appear to break even. And at 9 and more stacks Innovation + Hasty will grant slightly more quality. This is what my math last showed when I tested it.

In general what this means is that if you start with less starting quality (or have lower control) and are shooting for 9 or more stacks then Innovate+Hasty will be somewhat superior. While if you have lots of starting quality and only need 8 stacks then a basic touch method without Byregots wrapped in Innovation will be somewhat superior.

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Personally speaking from my early crafting of 2 star items, I would generally start the final product with 1500-2000 starting quality and push to get 8+ stacks, use innovation and hit 100% quality. I could get more starting quality, but it usually came at a cost or extra hassle.

With my current crafting stats my use of innovation is essentially irreverent. Regardless if I choose to use an extra basic or innovation I hit an excess of 100% quality. Technically speaking IF i have some really terrible RNG an reach the final step short a stack (say 6 stacks and 18 excess CP left). Then it would be optimal for my load out to allow a hast + innovation as stastically it would grant me the highest chance of HQ. But this scenario hasn't occurred more than once in the last three months on an endgood.

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So practically speaking the two techniques are incredibly close. To the point where keeping innovation loaded is somewhat hard to justify and not required. With this said I do use innovation more than reclaim, which would be the alternative in its slot (given my current loadout). Though I keep waste not I loaded for 40 durability one star macros (on my weaver) (instead of Innovation or Reclaim).

[KinGurie]

Sethira: Post-MM2. If you read carefully you'll notice all three possibilities that I list use 117 CP and 30 durability. I didn't run any calculations for activities before reaching that point.

Katlyna has a key point here: Practically speaking, the innovation/hasty vs. basic situation will not occur often.

[Sethira]

Sethira: Post-MM2. If you read carefully you'll notice all three possibilities that I list use 117 CP and 30 durability.

Yes of course I'm sorry, was busy preparing to craft a large batch of items on a time limit yesterday and you had a lot of numbers I didn't want to glance over. The main response I really had is that you seemed to highlight the idea that Innovation + the 80% success will let you reach higher heights somewhat reliably while the safe basic touches are consistent but will limit you. I'd say while I have noticed that as being true, the way 90%+ of any 2 star synth will occur will mean that our numbers are being applied to situations where IQ stacks are lower than they really should be, and that we end up disagreeing on how to reach 100% quality because of how the numbers actually work in game. The issue raised is really which one deals better with bad RNG from pre-MM2 using limited CP and durability. Am I correct in this assessment?