But what about Summoner???

[Saggo]

Who cares about the pet? FF Summoners have always been about unleashing large powers, not being a pet handler.

The last 5 Final Fantasies have had summons as separate entities and most gave you control over behavior, so thats not really true.

[silentwindfr]

The last 5 Final Fantasies have had summons as separate entities and most gave you control over behavior, so thats not really true.

actually quite untrue

FF8, you was calling the summon he was doing him attack and was disappear right after
FF9, same
FF10, you have a partial control of it
FF11, mmorpg bad example
FF12, you call it, but exept the big attack you have no control over him behaviour
FF13, like the 10.

only 2 of the last FF allows you a certain control over your summons, outside this...

by the way, they did this for make the summoner and the black mage different, since in the end often the summoner skill are principally massive AoE

ps: i don't count FF11 since a mmorpg will make the summoner a pet class generally. FF12 was made on a model of mmorpg, but i still count it.

[Lemuria]

FF10, you have a partial control of it

Partial? You literally choose all of their skills and abilities. They effectively become a party member, giving you full access to all of their attacks. So, bad example there. In fact, you can even teach them specific spells like Protect and Haste, making them effective combatants in their own right. The 'no-sphere grid' challenge relies on using summons to win every fight.

FF11, mmorpg bad example

Errm, last I checked FFXIV was an MMORPG, or am I missing something? Surely a fellow MMO is exactly the sort of benchmark we should be using to judge our summons in this game. Especially another one with the Final Fantasy moniker!

FF12, you call it, but exept the big attack you have no control over him behaviour
FF13, like the 10.

True for 12, false for 13. You're on a time limit, but all of the skills used are entirely down to your own discretion.

i don't count FF11 since a mmorpg will make the summoner a pet class generally. FF12 was made on a model of mmorpg, but i still count it.

Again, you discredit yourself since FFXIV is actually an MMO. Or do you consider this game to be a first person shooter?

Honestly, the pets in ARR might as well not even exist for all the good they do. I would have actually preferred a Black Mage style summon and dismiss to the rubbish 'it exists' style of summon we have here. The damage they do is terrible, they almost zero support skills, and they exist solely because of the job name. Painflare was greatly needed because we really lacked spike damage of any kind. Fester requires you to already have multiple DoT's on the target, and energy drain is weak and single target. Compare it to BLM who can spam Fire II for 100 potency on all targets (or use Flare for much more), and it's easy to see where we needed to play catch-up.

So, in general the new direction makes sense from a gameplay standpoint. But I maintain that Summoner feels so unlike a summoning job it might as well be called Mystic for all the emphasis it has. Pet jobs can be done well, but they've decided to have zero emphasis on the pets. In my opinion, Scholar is more of a summoner than Summoner is. At least their pets aren't just slightly useful, but genuinely crucial to every aspect of the job, with strength that rivals the caster.

[Khalithar]

So, in general the new direction makes sense from a gameplay standpoint. But I maintain that Summoner feels so unlike a summoning job it might as well be called Mystic for all the emphasis it has. Pet jobs can be done well, but they've decided to have zero emphasis on the pets. In my opinion, Scholar is more of a summoner than Summoner is. At least their pets aren't just slightly useful, but genuinely crucial to every aspect of the job, with strength that rivals the caster.

Well said, especially your point about the scholar bit! I feel the same way. Summoner does not really live up to it's name. They do at least explain a good deal of the why in the story yes, but as Lemuria said, they may as well change the name then. A Summoner should be a pet class or it should be about actually summoning things to attack for you. As is, the "Summoner" is not a summoner, it's one hell of a strong dps class though, I cant deny that.

[Khalithar]

The last 5 Final Fantasies have had summons as separate entities and most gave you control over behavior, so thats not really true.

FFXI is the best example of allowing you to do this. I actually would have preferred the FFXI model where you summon a large version of the summon which acts as a pet, but it's not there to supplement your dps. The summon was your dps, it was about commanding and controlling the powerful creature and having it do your bidding for you. I actually think that would have been the better implementation of the Summoner, but MMO's in general have tried to move away from combat pets being anything more than a glorified dot. That irritates me, I'd rather get a pet class where the focus was the pet doing the damage and fighting for you while you get to sit back and give it orders.

[silentwindfr]

FFXI is the best example of allowing you to do this. I actually would have preferred the FFXI model where you summon a large version of the summon which acts as a pet, but it's not there to supplement your dps. The summon was your dps, it was about commanding and controlling the powerful creature and having it do your bidding for you. I actually think that would have been the better implementation of the Summoner, but MMO's in general have tried to move away from combat pets being anything more than a glorified dot. That irritates me, I'd rather get a pet class where the focus was the pet doing the damage and fighting for you while you get to sit back and give it orders.

FF11 model is one of the worst exemple of pet class, since most of the time, people was calling the pet, doing one spell and send it away, since the pet was draining all your mana. other point if you was doing this, what will you do exept spend your time at virtually do nothing... you become not different than a minion.

ps: i think they have found a good balance between us and pet damage.

[Khalithar]

FF11 model is one of the worst exemple of pet class, since most of the time, people was calling the pet, doing one spell and send it away, since the pet was draining all your mana. other point if you was doing this, what will you do exept spend your time at virtually do nothing... you become not different than a minion.

It could be improved upon though. Take away the MP decay, give it more spells, and make the focus on commanding the pet to do different actions. It can have the same rotations and moves as a player character and your hotbar changes depending on the pet you have out. From there you hit the buttons and rather than your character casting spells, you'd see your character gesture while your summon does the actual attacks. I'm sorry if you don't see the appeal of summoning a large version of Titan and standing back while giving him the orders to smash things in various ways for you while you look on in glee knowing that powerful monster is your's to command. The thought of it sounds awesome to me.

Edit: I'll just go ahead and say it outright, I'd rather have Summoner be about summoning things and commanding them rather than the dot-based backloaded burst class where the "summons" (and I use that term very loosely) are just glorified dots. I know it will never happen, but I really don't like this incarnation of Summoner.

[skyfox]

FF11 model is one of the worst exemple of pet class, since most of the time, people was calling the pet, doing one spell and send it away, since the pet was draining all your mana. other point if you was doing this, what will you do exept spend your time at virtually do nothing... you become not different than a minion.

ps: i think they have found a good balance between us and pet damage.

actually i quite liked ff11 system. you can buff/deal damage and control pet depends on the battle requirement. in ff14, they are just extra DPS.

[Tagihi]

actually i quite liked ff11 system. you can buff/deal damage and control pet depends on the battle requirement. in ff14, they are just extra DPS.

Smn in FF11 where more a support then a dps.
Sure i had fenrir who was possible the best pet could had, but you who controlled the pet did nothing more then cast some heals now then.
"red mage was better dps then them"
Smn here are much better prolly one of the highest dps + they give buff to party as they did in 11.

[jomoru]

FFXI is the best example of allowing you to do this. I actually would have preferred the FFXI model where you summon a large version of the summon which acts as a pet, but it's not there to supplement your dps. The summon was your dps, it was about commanding and controlling the powerful creature and having it do your bidding for you. I actually think that would have been the better implementation of the Summoner, but MMO's in general have tried to move away from combat pets being anything more than a glorified dot. That irritates me, I'd rather get a pet class where the focus was the pet doing the damage and fighting for you while you get to sit back and give it orders.

I miss masterminds from COV...