Nocturnal Sect and Noct Aspected Benefic vs Adloquium

[Ghishlain]

So, over the course of the previous twenty-four hours, there's been a lot of heated discussion with the AST changes. One of the topics was the discussion of Nocturnal Aspected Benefic versus Adloquium. Two points came up during the discussion due to discrepancies and incomplete information or thoughts:

1. Nocturnal Sect doesn't seem to affect Aspected spells
2. On Average, Aspected Benefic is now more powerful than Adloquium

So *Cracks Knuckles* Let's kick the Bee's nest!

Nocturnal Sect doesn't seem to affect Aspected spells - False

Easy test to make. My methodology is to basically un-equip every piece of gear and and find the lowest ilvl weapon possible (i30 Star Globe). Then I'd determine the min-max range of my spells and get the mid-range from them to get my anticipated average.

Sun Seeker Miqo'te w/ 302 MND, 222 DET, 32 MD

Helios (No Sect Applied) = 295 to 314 heals = 304.5 average / cast

Nocturnal Aspected Helios would be half of this value.
If Nocturnal Sect did not affect this the spell would average for 152 / cast
If Nocturnal Sect did affect this the spell would average for 159 / cast

Nocturnal Aspected Helios = 154 to 163 heals = 158.5 average / cast


Taking this one step further, I also tested Aspected Benefic.

Benefic (No Sect Applied) = 395 to 419 heals = 407 average / cast

Nocturnal Aspected Benefic would be 37.5% weaker than Benefic
If Nocturnal Sect did not affect this the spell would average for 254 / cast
If Nocturnal Sect did affect this the spell would average for 266 / cast

Nocturnal Aspected Benefic = 258 to 274 heals = 266 average / cast

Therefore, yes, Aspected spells are indeed affected by the Sect Bonus.



On Average, Aspected Benefic is now more powerful than Adloquium - False

This is also pretty easy to prove. First let's figure out the math of each.

AST
For Non-Crit Heal
Heal = 262 Potency
Shield = 340 Potency
Total eHP = 602 Potency

For Crit Heal
Heal = 393 Potency
Shield = 510 Potency
Total eHP = 903 Potency

SCH
For Non-Crit Heal
Heal = 300 Potency
Shield = 300 Potency
Total eHP = 600 Potency

For Crit Heal
Heal = 450 Potency
Shield = 900 Potency
Total eHP = 1,350 Potency


When you do a weighted average of this for 5% Crit, you get the following:
AST eHP = ( 0.95 * 602 ) + ( 0.05 * 903 ) = 571.9 + 45.15 = 617.05 Potency average
SCH eHP = ( 0.95 * 600 ) + ( 0.05 * 1,350 ) = 570 + 67.5 = 637.5 Potency average

AST Shield = ( 0.95 * 340 ) + ( 0.05 * 510 ) = 323 + 25.5 = 348.5 Potency average
SCH Shield = ( 0.95 * 300 ) + ( 0.05 * 900 ) = 285 + 45 = 330 Potency average


When you do a weighted average of this for 10% Crit, you get the following:
AST eHP = ( 0.9 * 602 ) + ( 0.1 * 903 ) = 541.8 + 90.3 = 632.1 Potency average
SCH eHP = ( 0.9 * 600 ) + ( 0.1 * 1,350 ) = 540 + 135 = 675 Potency average

AST Shield = ( 0.9 * 340 ) + ( 0.1 * 510 ) = 306 + 51 = 357 Potency average
SCH Shield = ( 0.9 * 300 ) + ( 0.1 * 900 ) = 270 + 90 = 360 Potency average


When you do a weighted average of this for 15% Crit, you get the following:
AST eHP = ( 0.85 * 602 ) + ( 0.15 * 903 ) = 511.7 + 135.45 = 647.15 Potency average
SCH eHP = ( 0.85 * 600 ) + ( 0.15 * 1,350 ) = 510 + 202.5 = 712.5 Potency average

AST Shield = ( 0.85 * 340 ) + ( 0.15 * 510 ) = 289 + 76.5 = 365.5 Potency average
SCH Shield = ( 0.85 * 300 ) + ( 0.15 * 900 ) = 255 + 135 = 390 Potency average


When you do a weighted average of this for 20% Crit, you get the following:
AST eHP = ( 0.8 * 602 ) + ( 0.2 * 903 ) = 481.6 + 180.6 = 662.2 Potency average
SCH eHP = ( 0.8 * 600 ) + ( 0.2 * 1,350 ) = 480 + 270 = 750 Potency average

AST Shield = ( 0.8 * 340 ) + ( 0.2 * 510 ) = 272 + 102 = 374 Potency average
SCH Shield = ( 0.8 * 300 ) + ( 0.2 * 900 ) = 240 + 180 = 420 Potency average


Even at minimal base crit of 5%, SCH Adloquium on average will do more eHP than AST Aspected Benefic thanks to Crit bonus. Initially Aspected Benefic shields will do more but once SCH pushes past that 15% 10% threshold (I believe it's been reported that current max Crit set is 800 Crit which is 15% Crit as per Dervy's Reddit Post), average SCH shields start to get ahead of AST shields.

Note: This wall of text is about raw power and not about the MP costs / cast times associated with both spells (which is an entirely different can of worms).

[EDIT] Calculated shields wrong for AST, it's actually 340 shield,not 360 shield.

[Metterschlingel]

An on-average calculation doesn't matter, because you don't up an average shield in fight. A crit may come or not, but you can't rely on it, thus in terms of predictable mitigation, AST shields are better.

[aerolol]

Helios (No Sect Applied) = 295 to 314 heals = 304.5 average / cast

Nocturnal Aspected Helios would be half of this value.

Hmmm...
No?

Cure Potency (no sect) = 200
Cure Potency (Nocturnal Sect) = 150

[Akyio]

The total potency is 602~, 342 shield and 262 health recovery.
Yes it's quite more powerful than adlo if we're talking about a shield + it is instant cast, but it's only 1 skill out of entire class context.

[Alahra]

Thanks for this. They're roughly equal. Adloquium isn't instant but does a larger upfront heal (about a difference of ~300 on my 177 AST/SCH) and has the crit bonus. Even without factoring in the crit, the potency difference is a total of two. Two potency. Before you factor in the SCH crit bonus. I've been unable to fathom how much of a big deal this is being made out to be by some posters.

[Ghishlain]

An on-average calculation doesn't matter, because you don't up an average shield in fight. A crit may come or not, but you can't rely on it, thus in terms of predictable mitigation, AST shields are better.

If reliability was this important than no serious group would conceivably bring an AST as the vast majority of their utility package is based around RNG card draws.

Additionally, you cannot just say "on-average calculations doesn't matter" when one of the defining features of Adlo is the potency boost it gets when you Crit with it. You'd be doing the spell a disservice if you don't include this bonus to the average power calculation of the spell and S-E most likely balanced this spell around that critical bonus. This is akin to saying "DPS can't rely on Crit" when some jobs could make incredible use of Crit like BRD.

Hmmm...

No?

Cure Potency (no sect) = 200

Cure Potency (Nocturnal Sect) = 150

Normal Helios (not Aspected Helios) is a 300 Potency cure. I listed "no sect" because the 5% bonus from Nocturnal Sect would still apply to the spell potency.

Aspected Helios w/ Nocturnal Sect has a base potency of 150; this is half the power of normal Helios w/o a sect active.