Normal/Savage Alexander complaint

[Kosmos992k]

Ya know, I remember the debates over Coil when it became utterly clear that Coil was in fact too hard for the vast majority of players, and so many voices advocated a story mode version of it that preserved the difficulty level of the 'real' coil, because after all it was the progress, challenge and raiding gear drops that mattered. So now we have Alex Normal which is accessible pretty much to all, and Alex Savage which is harder and requires higher gear. This is exactly what the community requested. And as much as you might hate to admit it, it serves the population of players far better than Coil did.

Honestly I am trying to figure out what it is that end game players want. Is it better gear than everyone else? Is it achievements and titles that differentiate them from everyone else? Is it the challenge? Is it the knowledge that they beat something others can't beat?

No, it turns out now that actually it's exclusive story content that they get access to and others do not. Excuse me? If raid gear was not dropping in Savage mode, no one would run it except the really dedicated teams like BG. exclusive story content or otherwise, the first thing raiders in general will say is that if there is not better gear dropping in Savage, they won't run it because it's not worth their time.

It seems to me OP, that you want to have your cake and eat it, and take the cake away from everyone else, until you're finished eating yours. Sounds pretty selfish to me.

I disagree with this. It forces the savage raider to farm normal, which burns them out, or ruins the experience of the raid itself. Normal and savage should be on separate lockouts, or, normal should drop 180 gear. The story and glamour are available to the casual, the power is not.

No, you choose to do that to yourself. There is nothing forcing you to run and rerun content until you burn out. If your focus is too narrow, you will always find this issue in a game.

[Miscreant]

No, it turns out now that actually it's exclusive story content that they get access to and others do not. Excuse me? If raid gear was not dropping in Savage mode, no one would run it except the really dedicated teams like BG. exclusive story content or otherwise, the first thing raiders in general will say is that if there is not better gear dropping in Savage, they won't run it because it's not worth their time.

You've missed the point, they want to experience the story through progression, not on these watered down fights that provide no real challenge or reward outside of bits of gear. We're forced to run Normal mode before Savage, it ruins the story, it ruins the wow factor when you first see a new boss and their room. You plough through all of the floors so fast that theirs no time to speculate about whats next in-between.

For me personally I have no problem with normal mode being in the game or it dropping gear, I think its a good thing for the casual fan base. But for the next round of Alexander raids I would like for Savage and Normal to be separate entities, with neither being a requirement for the other.

[Kosmos992k]

You've missed the point, they want to experience the story through progression, not on these watered down fights that provide no real challenge or reward outside of bits of gear. We're forced to run Normal mode before Savage, it ruins the story, it ruins the wow factor when you first see a new boss and their room. You plough through all of the floors so fast that theirs no time to speculate about whats next in-between.

I don't think that the story needs to be altered significantly, nor limited in one vs the other. What is required though is some form of change-up in the Bosses, trash and mechanics used so that even though the story is largely unchanged, the actual experience and fights are different.

[Miscreant]

I don't think that the story needs to be altered significantly, nor limited in one vs the other. What is required though is some form of change-up in the Bosses, trash and mechanics used so that even though the story is largely unchanged, the actual experience and fights are different.

The fights do feel different in savage, obviously A1 & 2 are basically the same as they are the starter floors but A3 is a massive step up from the normal mode in terms of mechanics.

And it's not a matter of exclusivity, it's just that clearing one should not a requirement to do the other.

To me the best way would have been to make Law gear I190, clearing Alexander Normal not being a requirement for Alexander Savage and releasing them at the same time. But this has already been and gone now, we will have to see how they handle the next raid.

[Kosmos992k]

The fights do feel different in savage, obviously A1 & 2 are basically the same as they are the starter floors but A3 is a massive step up from the normal mode in terms of mechanics.

And it's not a matter of exclusivity, it's just that clearing one should not a requirement to do the other.

To me the best way would have been to make Law gear I190, clearing Alexander Normal not being a requirement for Alexander Savage and releasing them at the same time. But this has already been and gone now, we will have to see how they handle the next raid.

Perhaps they will allow those who have cleared Alex Savage as it stands to continue to the next part in Savage mode, that would make sense to me, and it would appear to resolve the issue completely by creating literally two separate paths that have the same starting point. If the second part of Alexander requires to be cleared in normal mode before undertaking Savage, even if you have already cleared the first part in Savage mode, that would be a problem in my opinion. I really hope that they maintain the two paths through Alexander separately to provide the raid experience for raiders and the less demanding experience for everyone else.

high skill players should be rewarded for their skill.

That's what the top tier gear drops are for, unless I am mistaken.

they should earn that storyline and earn that final fight with the big boss.

everybody else can wait to the next patch for the story mode.

Why? So you can be a special snowflake (to quote the usual Forum response)? Seriously though, why do you think you should get some special story elements all to yourself, even on a timed exclusivity, when you are already being rewarded with gear that those other players will likely never see, except on someone else.

Saying "everybody else can wait to the next patch for the story mode" about some content in a story driven game sounds pretty entitled, especially as you are clearly rewarded with the raid gear and additional achievement/titles in game. If the story is completely optional and has no bearing on the main story, then it's less of an issue to me, but if the story ties into the main story line, it should never be gated by real raid content.

[Miscreant]

Perhaps they will allow those who have cleared Alex Savage as it stands to continue to the next part in Savage mode, that would make sense to me, and it would appear to resolve the issue completely by creating literally two separate paths that have the same starting point. If the second part of Alexander requires to be cleared in normal mode before undertaking Savage, even if you have already cleared the first part in Savage mode, that would be a problem in my opinion. I really hope that they maintain the two paths through Alexander separately to provide the raid experience for raiders and the less demanding experience for everyone else.

I completely agree with you on this

snip

If they had just made Law gear i190 and us not needing an Alexander Normal clear to do Savage we wouldn't have had the choice over whether we spoil Savage's fights with normal or not, but that's retrospect for you.

[Nekodar]

If they had just made Law gear i190 and us not needing an Alexander Normal clear to do Savage we wouldn't have had the choice over whether we spoil Savage's fights with normal or not, but that's retrospect for you.

If they had made upgraded law gear and alexander normal gear the same ilevel, noone would run normal more than once. Which would result in people that don't do it right away have less chance of actually clearing it...
Having it better creates incentive for people to actually do it more than once.

[SendohJin]

That's what the top tier gear drops are for, unless I am mistaken.

Why? So you can be a special snowflake (to quote the usual Forum response)? Seriously though, why do you think you should get some special story elements all to yourself, even on a timed exclusivity, when you are already being rewarded with gear that those other players will likely never see, except on someone else.

i'm not even on that top end and because they deserve it and they earned it.

the gear doesn't always drop and the gear isn't that special. the stats are on the same level as Eso stuff which everyone will get to upgrade in 3.1, the look is the same as the story content, except you can change the color. there's more to the game than just loot. why are you making everything about loot?

you value loot way too much if you think the most skilled players rewarded with only loot is enough.

why do you feel entitled to all of the story content at the same time as people who obviously put in much more effort? i didn't even suggest to deny anyone content, even slowing it downs bother you cause you didn't put in the effort? who is really the entitled one here? who is really the one obsessing over gear?

Saying "everybody else can wait to the next patch for the story mode" about some content in a story driven game sounds pretty entitled, especially as you are clearly rewarded with the raid gear and additional achievement/titles in game. If the story is completely optional and has no bearing on the main story, then it's less of an issue to me, but if the story ties into the main story line, it should never be gated by real raid content.

the story is completely optional. the Alex story is not part of the main story line and neither was Coil, neither has any bearing on the main storyline. so you're agreeing it is less of an issue?

[Kosmos992k]

the gear doesn't always drop and the gear isn't that special. the stats are on the same level as Eso stuff which everyone will get to upgrade in 3.1, the look is the same as the story content, except you can change the color. there's more to the game than just loot. why are you making everything about loot?

I'm not, every raider I have ever met on the other hand has made it clear that it's about loot. The message received loud and clear on many, many occasions is that they do it for the gear. You've been here long enough to remember all the discussions about Savage coil, it boiled down to no new drops = no reason to do it.

you value loot way too much if you think the most skilled players rewarded with only loot is enough.

Perhaps you should read my post again, I believe I referenced dedicated teams such as BG in the context of them doing a savage mode Alex whether or not it had better gear drops. The point being that those dedicated and skilled players do it for the challenge, to beat the challenge, to them the gear is nothing more than a means to an end.

why do you feel entitled to all of the story content at the same time as people who obviously put in much more effort?

I paid for that story as much as you did, so why should I not get it? Placing story elements behind top tier raids in a story based, paid subscription MMORPG is a poor way to do business and screws over the majority of players in the game. I think most would recognize that those players will never set foot in the top tier raid content.

i didn't even suggest to deny anyone content, even slowing it downs bother you cause you didn't put in the effort?

Slowing it down? If it's gated behind savage mode Alexander, it's unlikely anyone but raiders will ever see it; just as the only way 80+% (this is a guesstimate) of the players will ever see the Coil story elements is via You Tube.

who is really the entitled one here? who is really the one obsessing over gear?

In order, you are and raiders obsess over gear.

Good god, one look at my Lodestone should tell you that I am most certainly not gear obsessed.

the story is completely optional. the Alex story is not part of the main story line and neither was Coil, neither has any bearing on the main storyline. so you're agreeing it is less of an issue?

Shall I quote my own post?

Saying "everybody else can wait to the next patch for the story mode" about some content in a story driven game sounds pretty entitled, especially as you are clearly rewarded with the raid gear and additional achievement/titles in game. If the story is completely optional and has no bearing on the main story, then it's less of an issue to me, but if the story ties into the main story line, it should never be gated by real raid content.

As I said in my quoted remarks, if the story elements are not part of, and do not relate to, the main story, and are completely optional, then yes it is less of a problem, though it is still problematic IMHO.

You know, it's really funny to me, for nearly two years the arguments over raid content centered around raiders being pissed off because it was possible to gear up to near equivalents of their Allagan and High Allagan gear through alternate means a patch or two after whichever part of coil was released. The discussion revolved around how freaking important it was to raiders to have gear in the raid being unique to them and only available to them. That's the context here. But now, it seems that the argument has morphed into the gear being unimportant? And now it's the story you really desire? Or perhaps you want the gear and the story?

I don't give two craps about raiding gear, I don't raid. I do care about the story and lore in the game. Gating story and/or lore behind difficult content (difficult enough to guarantee most players will never experience it) does not serve the audience of the game. But now, based on your line of argument it seems that actually it's not about the gear, it's about raiders having their own segment of content that is exclusively theirs unless it's nerfed at some point in the future, by which time no one will be running it anyway. You are the one wanting to maintain exclusivity of content to a specific group. I am the one arguing for story elements to be accessible to all.

[SendohJin]

No, it turns out now that actually it's exclusive story content that they get access to and others do not. Excuse me? If raid gear was not dropping in Savage mode, no one would run it except the really dedicated teams like BG. exclusive story content or otherwise, the first thing raiders in general will say is that if there is not better gear dropping in Savage, they won't run it because it's not worth their time.

it's not exclusivity, it's priority and awe. seeing Twintania, Nael, Phoenix, Bahamut for the first time in Coil after completing the difficult fight before them is rewarding.

high skill players should be rewarded for their skill. they should earn that storyline and earn that final fight with the big boss.

everybody else can wait to the next patch for the story mode.