Power-leveling is absolutely BROKEN

[Sephrick]

I'm just quoting you to ask a question...

So you think (or did SE say) that the leveling curve will change after 2.0? That PL won't necessarily be as bad becuase there will be content all over the place and for all levels?

SE hasn't said anything about what TNLs will be like after 51, to my knowledge.

But look at it this way. Right now, the TNL for 50-51 is 110,000. A 10,000 exp jump from 49-50. So if that trend continues we have:

50-51: 110,000
51-52: 120,000
52-53: 130,000
53-54: 140,000
54-55: 150,000
55-56: 160,000
56-57: 170,000
57-58: 180,000
58-59: 190,000
59-60: 200,000

This is based on only if SE doesn't continue to increase the jumps in TNLs as levels get higher, but for only 10 more levels, it'd take 1,550,000. To get to cap currently, it takes 1,891,150 exp.

For every 10 levels they add after level 50, at the current rate exp increases, the trip from 1 to cap doubles.

By the time the cap reaches 75 -- the long-time cap for XI -- the total amount of exp required will be well over 7 million.

If your average party can pull in 150,000 exp per hour (though, I believe this is a figure for PL'd parties. I've been leveling my Cnj, Thm and Arc in legitimate parties and it's been significantly lower) a group can reach the current cap in 12 hours of exping.

This 12 hours doesn't include time spent building a group, traveling (because teleports can only take you so far), resting, repairing, acquiring new gear and any other nature time sinks.

To some, this doesn't seem so bad. But consider the fact that it takes more than one class at cap to be effective at endgame. Even at soloing those first few levels it's to a player's benefit to level most classes to 5, if not 10 or 15.

To go from 74-75, we'd have a TNL of 350,000 -- again, using 75 as an example because it was XI's long-time cap and keeping true to using the in game TNL gap as the example and not assuming anything in order to keep the estimate on the low end.

So 61-75 is another 4,200,000 exp, for a total of 7,641,150. At an average rate of 150,000 per hour, it'd take approximately 50 hours of straight exp gain to go from 1 to cap.

But bare in mind, this isn't like XI where you supplement your classes by taking them a fraction of the way to cap.

In XIV, you might need to take multiple classes to cap if you really want to be the best. So if someone wants to be the best mage on their server, and for argument's sake let's say Archanist is out, it'd take 150 hours of exping to reach cap.

But sometimes, especially in XIV, it takes more than battle classes to be the best.

In come Disciples of the Hand.

It takes about 2 minutes to legitimately complete a synth. And because I like round numbers, we'll say a serious DoH can average 550 exp per synth, assuming they use the process of starting a synth 9 levels above them for about 700 exp success/250-300 on breaks.

That means each hour, a DoH can net 16,500 exp. So to take a DoH from 1-75 (if ever the cap gets there) it'd take about 463 hours. We know they intend to increase the level of DoH along with battle classes, as 1.19 introduced 51-60 level recipes.

This is where people put on blinders and fail to see the bigger picture.

XIV is about choice. A player can choose to have one PL'd class at cap just to experience the game with friends. Or they can commit themselves to being the best of the best by leveling multiple classes, including DoH and DoL.

They also fail to think beyond the moment, that the devs might just have a plan beyond what we have in the game now.

It's better to plan the exp curve and rate of exp ahead of time, and consider all angles.

The rate of exp does seem quick right now. And the "drop from party and kill" thing is broken and needs to be fixed.

But the rate at which a functional party can gain exp is being blown out of proportion.

All they need to do to fix the current situation is that exp is based on the level of your party when the mob is claimed. That way they don't have to get rid of the function to add and drop players during battle.

That's why my hope is that they make leveling an actual journey. The Grand Companies are the perfect mean to do so.

Grand Company leves should be epic. Dungeon crawls to meet formidable foes. Skirmishes with Imperial troops. DoHs could complete synths to supply the troops. DoLs can go out to collect samples for scientists to study a post-calamity Eorzea.

The original leves were sort of like that. But the text was bland. It should be presented in a traditional Final Fantasy way, cutscenes and the like. Every little action should feel like it matters in the world.

I don't care how long it takes to get to cap, as long as I feel like I'm playing the game. Killing the same monster repeated just because they happen to be the right level not only doesn't feel like a Final Fantasy, it doesn't even feel like game play.

[darkstarpoet1]

SE hasn't said anything about what TNLs will be like after 51, to my knowledge.

But look at it this way. Right now, the TNL for 50-51 is 110,000. A 10,000 exp jump from 49-50. So if that trend continues we have:

50-51: 110,000
51-52: 120,000
52-53: 130,000
53-54: 140,000
54-55: 150,000
55-56: 160,000
56-57: 170,000
57-58: 180,000
58-59: 190,000
59-60: 200,000

This is based on only if SE doesn't continue to increase the jumps in TNLs as levels get higher, but for only 10 more levels, it'd take 1,550,000. To get to cap currently, it takes 1,891,150 exp.

For every 10 levels they add after level 50, at the current rate exp increases, the trip from 1 to cap doubles.

By the time the cap reaches 75 -- the long-time cap for XI -- the total amount of exp required will be well over 7 million.

If your average party can pull in 150,000 exp per hour (though, I believe this is a figure for PL'd parties. I've been leveling my Cnj, Thm and Arc in legitimate parties and it's been significantly lower) a group can reach the current cap in 12 hours of exping.

This 12 hours doesn't include time spent building a group, traveling (because teleports can only take you so far), resting, repairing, acquiring new gear and any other nature time sinks.

To some, this doesn't seem so bad. But consider the fact that it takes more than one class at cap to be effective at endgame. Even at soloing those first few levels it's to a player's benefit to level most classes to 5, if not 10 or 15.

To go from 74-75, we'd have a TNL of 350,000 -- again, using 75 as an example because it was XI's long-time cap and keeping true to using the in game TNL gap as the example and not assuming anything in order to keep the estimate on the low end.

So 61-75 is another 4,200,000 exp, for a total of 7,641,150. At an average rate of 150,000 per hour, it'd take approximately 50 hours of straight exp gain to go from 1 to cap.

But bare in mind, this isn't like XI where you supplement your classes by taking them a fraction of the way to cap.

In XIV, you might need to take multiple classes to cap if you really want to be the best. So if someone wants to be the best mage on their server, and for argument's sake let's say Archanist is out, it'd take 150 hours of exping to reach cap.

But sometimes, especially in XIV, it takes more than battle classes to be the best.

In come Disciples of the Hand.

It takes about 2 minutes to legitimately complete a synth. And because I like round numbers, we'll say a serious DoH can average 550 exp per synth, assuming they use the process of starting a synth 9 levels above them for about 700 exp success/250-300 on breaks.

That means each hour, a DoH can net 16,500 exp. So to take a DoH from 1-75 (if ever the cap gets there) it'd take about 463 hours. We know they intend to increase the level of DoH along with battle classes, as 1.19 introduced 51-60 level recipes.

This is where people put on blinders and fail to see the bigger picture.

XIV is about choice. A player can choose to have one PL'd class at cap just to experience the game with friends. Or they can commit themselves to being the best of the best by leveling multiple classes, including DoH and DoL.

They also fail to think beyond the moment, that the devs might just have a plan beyond what we have in the game now.

It's better to plan the exp curve and rate of exp ahead of time, and consider all angles.

The rate of exp does seem quick right now. And the "drop from party and kill" thing is broken and needs to be fixed.

But the rate at which a functional party can gain exp is being blown out of proportion.

All they need to do to fix the current situation is that exp is based on the level of your party when the mob is claimed. That way they don't have to get rid of the function to add and drop players during battle.

That's why my hope is that they make leveling an actual journey. The Grand Companies are the perfect mean to do so.

Grand Company leves should be epic. Dungeon crawls to meet formidable foes. Skirmishes with Imperial troops. DoHs could complete synths to supply the troops. DoLs can go out to collect samples for scientists to study a post-calamity Eorzea.

The original leves were sort of like that. But the text was bland. It should be presented in a traditional Final Fantasy way, cutscenes and the like. Every little action should feel like it matters in the world.

I don't care how long it takes to get to cap, as long as I feel like I'm playing the game. Killing the same monster repeated just because they happen to be the right level not only doesn't feel like a Final Fantasy, it doesn't even feel like game play.

when was the cap raised to 75? i think the only thing i have heard is that while the cap is still relatively low that this was not a good time for this fast of sp. i you can cap every battle/magic class in a week from start to finish it is too fast. once the cap is increased i don't think anyone would care if they added this type of sp for the lower ranked players to allow them a chance to catch up to where people were.

the problem is that you are talking about future things that have not happened and nobody knows when it will. people are talking about current state of the game and they are dead on. once the cap is increased sure make the 1-50 easier for the newer players, but not while 50 is still the cap.

[Sephrick]

when was the cap raised to 75? i think the only thing i have heard is that while the cap is still relatively low that this was not a good time for this fast of sp. i you can cap every battle/magic class in a week from start to finish it is too fast. once the cap is increased i don't think anyone would care if they added this type of sp for the lower ranked players to allow them a chance to catch up to where people were.

the problem is that you are talking about future things that have not happened and nobody knows when it will. people are talking about current state of the game and they are dead on. once the cap is increased sure make the 1-50 easier for the newer players, but not while 50 is still the cap.

The whole point of the math was that they need to plan for the future. That way they don't have to rebalance exp rates and tnls every time they bump up the cap.

Like I said, at the current curve growth for every 10 levels they add the time it takes to reach cap doubles. If the game hadn't flopped, we may have been working on getting our classes to 60 or 70 by now.

But things worked out the way they did and it's taking a little longer for that to happen because Yoshida has said he doesn't want too much of a gap between 1.x, 2.0 and PS3 players.

It also needs to stay as fast as it currently is for a reason that just doesn't seem to be getting through to people: SE has limited resources for 1.x. They decided to make all capped content. Therefore they need to allow new players the opportunity to experience it before the one-time calamity event wipes or alters most of it.

Especially since they're going to start pushing the game again as soon as E3 2012. "Come and take the opportunity to be ahead of the curve" is far more inviting than "Come and miss out on the content because you'll be killing Raptors for three months."

[darkstarpoet1]

The whole point of the math was that they need to plan for the future. That way they don't have to rebalance exp rates and tnls every time they bump up the cap.

Like I said, at the current curve growth for every 10 levels they add the time it takes to reach cap doubles. If the game hadn't flopped, we may have been working on getting our classes to 60 or 70 by now.

But things worked out the way they did and it's taking a little longer for that to happen because Yoshida has said he doesn't want too much of a gap between 1.x, 2.0 and PS3 players.

It also needs to stay as fast as it currently is for a reason that just doesn't seem to be getting through to people: SE has limited resources for 1.x. They decided to make all capped content. Therefore they need to allow new players the opportunity to experience it before the one-time calamity event wipes or alters most of it.

Especially since they're going to start pushing the game again as soon as E3 2012. "Come and take the opportunity to be ahead of the curve" is far more inviting than "Come and miss out on the content because you'll be killing Raptors for three months."

they could have made the plans for the future and that is fine, but the problem is they not only made the plans they implemented them. you want to talk about the future, but you fail to see the present has a bearing of what the future holds. you state yoshi hasn't raised cap to keep the new players from getting behind on ps3 release, but then support everyone having every class to cap in the next few months. look at it from a different point of view.

1. you can cap a battle class from 1-50 in a single day x 7 classes. that is every battle class at cap in 1 week.

2. it takes less than a week to cap a craft with the leves and grinding and will become even shorter after they add in this craft chain they discussed. that's 8 classes at 1 week each for a total of 8 weeks to cap all crafts.

3. the dol takes a bit longer to cap, but it can be done in around 2 weeks. there's only 3 of those so that is 6 weeks total.

you are looking at the rate in which sp is gained now a brand new player can reach cap very easily on every class in the game in a total of 15 weeks. the 2.0 is to be released in around a year from now which is 52 weeks away. they have not stated the cap would be increased on 1.21 like alot have been stating, but it was said it was something they would not consider before then.

i'll play devil's advocate and say they decide to hold off until ps3 release to keep people from getting too far ahead of the ps3 players, like yoshi stated himself he did not want. if they hold off you will have every class capped and every piece of content completed wayyyyy before the 2.0 version and the cap increase comes out. in fact you will have all classes done 37 weeks before the release.

that is why i said they are fine planning for the future, but until they decide to move the cap up they should not be making getting to cap this easy. they need to give things for people to continue doing until 2.0 is here and not assisting people to get to the little amount of end game the game offers now that is viable content. all it will do in the long run is assist people in finishing everything this game has to offer now and move onto something else.

it reminds me of the nm nerf they stated was because of the battle system changes and then the only high end content for months was super easy nm's. they made the change and then waited for months before they added something in that made the original move worthwhile. the dev team is doing alot of the "putting the cart before the horse" where they are taking stuff away and adding other parts before they finish what they started.

i understand you stating you are looking at the future, but you must realize that the cap is still 50 for now. yes, the cap will be increased in the future and then it is completely fine to make the trip to 50 easier after it is raised, but it should never be easy when it is still the max you can do when we know there is a year to wait before others will be joining the game.

[Sephrick]

1. you can cap a battle class from 1-50 in a single day x 7 classes. that is every battle class at cap in 1 week.

That's the thing, though. XIV is all about choice. You chose to rush every single class to 50, because you clearly have the time to do so.

I chose to take my time, level slowly, and enjoy what content there is with my friends and linkshell members.

We currently coexist in the same game. We're both still here, and we both represent different wants and needs in the game.

The only difference is that you're standing on top of the mountain telling me I'm climbing it too fast. How can anyone who has every single class at 50 feel justified in telling anyone else how long it should take them to level?

The problem is, if SE starts to cater to the select few like you who try to rush and get everything finished as soon as they possibly can, they run the risk of eliminating that choice.

Suddenly, only the people who can spend 10+ hours a day will get anywhere and the game will become empty. It's a double-edged sword, and SE has clearly made their choice. After all, this was to be a game with mass appeal. They already have their old-school grindfest MMO out there on the market.

2. it takes less than a week to cap a craft with the leves and grinding and will become even shorter after they add in this craft chain they discussed. that's 8 classes at 1 week each for a total of 8 weeks to cap all crafts.

Not everyone has the time to devote to this game that you do. It's tough to reach 20,000 per hour on crafts, even with leves. Especially considering that most leves require extensive travel for the bonus exp.

1,891,150 / 20,000 = 94.5 hours.

There are, indeed, 168 hours in a week. But for those of us who spend 40 of those hours at work, and another 49 or so sleeping, capping a craft in a week just isn't physically possible.

3. the dol takes a bit longer to cap, but it can be done in around 2 weeks. there's only 3 of those so that is 6 weeks total.

Again, you're basing this off your own play time, because that's how you like to play. But DoL leves come two at a time and traveling between town and camp -- even with chocobos and free returns -- still takes a significant amount of time. Granted, Cedarwood is a godsend in cutting down the travel time for that level range. But not everyone has the same amount of time to play that you do.

Some people actually stop to do other things, like camp those mid-level NMs. Or check out Shpshoe (the level 15ish dungeon, still can't spell it correctly).

you are looking at the rate in which sp is gained now a brand new player can reach cap very easily on every class in the game in a total of 15 weeks. the 2.0 is to be released in around a year from now which is 52 weeks away. they have not stated the cap would be increased on 1.21 like alot have been stating, but it was said it was something they would not consider before then.

You're opinion of "very easily" is quite obviously very skewed. It was "very easy" for you because you obviously have the free time and the drive to sit at your computer for hours.

But the average player doesn't have the means to play that long. I've been playing since launch. I have four classes at 50 and the rest ranging from the 20s to 30s. I doubt I'll take any more to 50.

By what you seem to be saying, I should be done with the game. Yet I'm still here. Why? Because I don't feel I need to log on every night. Some nights I play some Assassin's Creed and Call of Duty MP. Other nights I read a damn book or catch up on TV. Weekends I'm out with my girlfriend and or friends.

XIV is at a good pace for those who don't care to log on for 6 hours a night every night.

I play usually three to four nights a week unless a new console game recently has come out, and I still find tons of value in the game.

This notion that every single person is going to come into this game sharing your mentality of "level everything as fast as possible" is just a delusion.

Games with a easier leveling curve are more likely to retain more players because it requires less time to get somewhere.

Even if I raced every class to 50, I'd still intend to log on. Simply because I enjoy playing with the friends I've made since I've been playing. I look forward to taking on Moogles and Garuda with my friends. And I'll log on every time we schedule an event because I want to see them get drops. And because I'm excited to take on the coming calamity with them.

That's my journey. Not gaining levels or being the absolute first to burn out content. Just having fun and cracking jokes with friends.

Yoshida and crew have said what their vision of the game is, and it's kept people around this long. All you want is for the game to conform to your idea of what it should be, and you are completely blind to what others may find as a valuable experience.

Not everyone is concerned about getting everything to cap. As I've said countless times in this thread alone. Some people want to get one class to cap and just do content with friends. Others want to rush everything to cap as quickly as possible. Others want to meticulously cherry pick specific things, taking certain classes to certain levels.

But in the end it's not the rest of the world that doesn't find value in the current rate of exp, it's you. And just because you did something doesn't mean everyone is going to do it.

And that's the true difference between casual and hardcore. Hardcore players think that unless they MUST spend 10+ hours a day playing, that the game is on a path to failure. Casuals just want to be able to log in on their own terms.

XIV is an on-your-own-terms kind of game. The only reason it's in the state it's in is because it was, for reasons unknown to us, rushed to market before it was anywhere near completion.

It'd be awesome if XIV was like XI in terms of content. If it had CoP and RotZ and AF and cap quests and sidequests and all the other things to do sprinkled along the way.

It was those things that made the empty grind of XI tolerable.

But Yoshida was handed a pile of shit and asked to polish it. The devs are working with very limited resources and what content is on the road map is the best they can do.

Because in the end, it's another double-edged sword. If they took some of those resources, cut some of the capped content as a result, and added some mid-level content for the sake of slowing the leveling process, this forum would instead be littered with posts crying about SE wasting their time on mid level content that is of no challenge to those who already have all the classes they want at 50 and declaring that not focusing on capped content alone will be the death of the game.

But without that mid-level content, there's no reason to slow down the rate of exp.

The choices they have made are the best way to keep everyone pacified till 2.0. It's not without it's downsides, but this way everyone should be happy.

I'm sure a lot of people have their own thoughts on what XIV should or could have been. It doesn't make any one more right than the other. All we have to go on is what the game is, SE's actions and what they've told us their plans and concepts are.

[Sorel]

Because in the end, it's another double-edged sword. If they took some of those resources, cut some of the capped content as a result, and added some mid-level content for the sake of slowing the leveling process, this forum would instead be littered with posts crying about SE wasting their time on mid level content that is of no challenge to those who already have all the classes they want at 50 and declaring that not focusing on capped content alone will be the death of the game.

But without that mid-level content, there's no reason to slow down the rate of exp.

The choices they have made are the best way to keep everyone pacified till 2.0. It's not without it's downsides, but this way everyone should be happy.

I personally would love some seriously engaging mid-level content. I still remember some BCNM30 & BCNM40 fights that me and my LS mates we're tackling after we hit 70+ in FFXI. Bitoso in Creeping Doom was a personal favorite of our mage-types.

[Searious]

they could have made the plans for the future and that is fine, but the problem is they not only made the plans they implemented them. you want to talk about the future, but you fail to see the present has a bearing of what the future holds. you state yoshi hasn't raised cap to keep the new players from getting behind on ps3 release, but then support everyone having every class to cap in the next few months. look at it from a different point of view.

1. you can cap a battle class from 1-50 in a single day x 7 classes. that is every battle class at cap in 1 week.

2. it takes less than a week to cap a craft with the leves and grinding and will become even shorter after they add in this craft chain they discussed. that's 8 classes at 1 week each for a total of 8 weeks to cap all crafts.

3. the dol takes a bit longer to cap, but it can be done in around 2 weeks. there's only 3 of those so that is 6 weeks total.

you are looking at the rate in which sp is gained now a brand new player can reach cap very easily on every class in the game in a total of 15 weeks. the 2.0 is to be released in around a year from now which is 52 weeks away. they have not stated the cap would be increased on 1.21 like alot have been stating, but it was said it was something they would not consider before then.

i'll play devil's advocate and say they decide to hold off until ps3 release to keep people from getting too far ahead of the ps3 players, like yoshi stated himself he did not want. if they hold off you will have every class capped and every piece of content completed wayyyyy before the 2.0 version and the cap increase comes out. in fact you will have all classes done 37 weeks before the release.

that is why i said they are fine planning for the future, but until they decide to move the cap up they should not be making getting to cap this easy. they need to give things for people to continue doing until 2.0 is here and not assisting people to get to the little amount of end game the game offers now that is viable content. all it will do in the long run is assist people in finishing everything this game has to offer now and move onto something else.

it reminds me of the nm nerf they stated was because of the battle system changes and then the only high end content for months was super easy nm's. they made the change and then waited for months before they added something in that made the original move worthwhile. the dev team is doing alot of the "putting the cart before the horse" where they are taking stuff away and adding other parts before they finish what they started.

i understand you stating you are looking at the future, but you must realize that the cap is still 50 for now. yes, the cap will be increased in the future and then it is completely fine to make the trip to 50 easier after it is raised, but it should never be easy when it is still the max you can do when we know there is a year to wait before others will be joining the game.

This is only if you don't have anything else to do besides play this game. If you have other things to do the pace is fine.

[darkstarpoet1]

This is only if you don't have anything else to do besides play this game. If you have other things to do the pace is fine.

ignorance is bliss. i have friends that play an hour or 2 a day. i consider that small amount of time casual gamers. they work full time jobs, have kids, and are married, but come in to play just a little while after work to relax. even in that small amount of time they have capped multiple classes in the last week or so.

you can claim whatever you want, but the numbers don't lie. if you can get from cap in less than 8 hours it doesn't matter if it's 8 hours in a day or spread out over 8 days the time is still the same and way too fast.

this speed is too fast to even compare to most offline rpg's and they are meant to be completed fast, but they still take more time to get to max level.