To all the flames on primal datacenter...

[Ashkendor]

That chat box is pretty close to exactly what I read most of the time in the Flames box, only you just have to swap the names. "Fall back" / "Ignore Adders" / "Get out" followed by "Adders chasing" / "Adders inc" / "ADDERS!!!"

It seems the Adders and Flames just can't seem to let each other go. Most of the time, when we engage Mael the fight ends when the nodes die. There's this awkward moment where we kind of stand there, looking at each other like we're unsure, but we part ways and that's it. When we get into it with Adders, though, one of us always ends up chasing the other and the fights drag on past the point where it should have ended a long time ago.

Yepppppp even on my data center I've seen a ton of this in the past week or two. Adders chasing us even when we're in last. Adders spawn camping us while Maelstrom sits back passing around the popcorn with 4 nodes and a 400 point lead. It gets to the point where we just make sure Adder doesn't win the game even once they actually start trying. We just go to every last Adder vs. Mael fight and focus yellows until they're obliterated, then camp their spawn if we're feeling especially douchey.

I've been in a few matches where a friend of mine who is in Adders was in the same match, and she said that basically it's the same on their end - people screaming on /a to leave Flames alone but the majority of the alliance just tuning it out.

Flames vs Mael, yeah we all tend to just blink at each other and go "well crap" when the nodes despawn, and go our separate ways.

[Februs]

It gets to the point where we just make sure Adder doesn't win the game even once they actually start trying. We just go to every last Adder vs. Mael fight and focus yellows until they're obliterated, then camp their spawn if we're feeling especially douchey.

Flames vs Mael, yeah we all tend to just blink at each other and go "well crap" when the nodes despawn, and go our separate ways.

I've never seen it get quit that bad. I don't think I've ever been part of a group that has actively spawn camped. However, I have been part of a group that has intentionally focused Adders because they harassed us to the point where we couldn't take it any more. Especially if it gets to the point where Mael is so far ahead we can't do anything about it.

Just played a round where RNG pretty much forced Adders and us together right off the bat (Adders and Mael both had 2 nodes each and Flames had nothing. Adders were closer Mael was on high ground). We fought over the Node. Adders kept it, but when we went to leave they got super aggressive and started chasing us. We had zero nodes from the very start of the match, and yet they wouldn't let us leave instead of attacking mael. Second set of Nodes and still not a single one on the Flames end of the map. Mael get two. Adders get one. Yet, adders were still chasing us. After two node sets of this, Mael had an over 500pt lead. Adders lost just as much fighting us as we gained, so we were about even, but there was no way we were gonna catch up to Mael. If Adders had, even once, switched to attacking mael than we might have been able to turn that around, but they didn't.

[Kinseykinz]

I've never seen it get quit that bad. I don't think I've ever been part of a group that has actively spawn camped. However, I have been part of a group that has intentionally focused Adders because they harassed us to the point where we couldn't take it any more. Especially if it gets to the point where Mael is so far ahead we can't do anything about it.

Just played a round where RNG pretty much forced Adders and us together right off the bat (Adders and Mael both had 2 nodes each and Flames had nothing. Adders were closer Mael was on high ground). We fought over the Node. Adders kept it, but when we went to leave they got super aggressive and started chasing us. We had zero nodes from the very start of the match, and yet they wouldn't let us leave instead of attacking mael. Second set of Nodes and still not a single one on the Flames end of the map. Mael get two. Adders get one. Yet, adders were still chasing us. After two node sets of this, Mael had an over 500pt lead. Adders lost just as much fighting us as we gained, so we were about even, but there was no way we were gonna catch up to Mael. If Adders had, even once, switched to attacking mael than we might have been able to turn that around, but they didn't.

At the end of the day, you're blaming the adders for your loss. Your loss was your team's fault.
1. You couldn't win ONE node from a team that was holding TWO in the beginning.
2. At the next Spawn, you still didn't get a node, still due to range. So when this happened, Adders in pursuit notwithstanding, what was your teams plan? Go take a node from Mael?
3. If you were being followed, you should have been able to get the majority of your team away, even if being pursued. Could have ran them straight into the Mael and forced a 3-way battle. Turning around only allows your team to be easier picked off. So it sounds like your teams communication/strategy and/or experience was lacking. You also could have regrouped at spawn and pushed a node that way. Still, while there might have been some casualties, it is impossible to slaughter 24 people running away, unless they turn around and start fighting in the open/aren't actually the whole alliance etc. Furthermore, I seriously doubt the entire Adder team chased you.
4. What it likely looked like to the adders (keep in mind, we can't cross-communicate in here) is this:
- First round, you could have focused Mael or Adders, your team picked Adders. I get your reasons, but still end of the day, you picked on Adders and left mael uncontested.
-Second round, mael spawns might have been out of reach/far away for Adders to easily contest and since you all were slow to leave initial spawns, you were too close to the new spawn they held and a threat, meaning they felt they had to chase you off. So you got chased.
-It appeared to Adders it was the typical Flames> gunning for Adders causing mael to be up crap. (I think most of this on both sides is just poppy-cock).

But when you couldn't do the initial push, and then didn't get the hell out of there, THAT's what set in motion the rest of the battle+spawns that sound like they naturally worked in Mael favor. Not some wierd 'MUST KILL THE FLAMES! vandetta...actually, if you saw adder chat, we were likely getting pissy that we felt that we couldn't focus the winning Mael once again due to the Flames.

PS: Adders loose plenty of matches too. Flames win plenty of matches, and I've seen the flames tunnel vision on the Mael as much as they tunnel vision on the Adders. Typically whoever attacks you first in any match you will hut the rest of time. Adders typically are actively telling people to stop chasing the losing team/focus on defense and/or the winning team. So, sounds like you were squishy, took too long to get out of their nodes, and were very unsuccessful at your initial push...and far less like the Adders systematically decided to punish you.

[LordHadi]

I can't agree more with the OP. Adders do play well and work as a team but Flames and Maels always team up against us. My wins are 2 out of 15 matches per week.

[Dimitrii]

I can't agree more with the OP. Adders do play well and work as a team but Flames and Maels always team up against us. My wins are 2 out of 15 matches per week.

No one is teaming up against you. Stop looking for excuses that aren't there for your losses. Its a three way fight, eventually someone is gonna get sandwiched because of node placements. Besides maelstrom starting to consider flames the bigger threat to victory than adders, at least during the evening hours, so why would we waste our time pointlessly double teaming the last place team?

[Februs]

No one is teaming up against you. Stop looking for excuses that aren't there for your losses. Its a three way fight, eventually someone is gonna get sandwiched because of node placements. Besides maelstrom starting to consider flames the bigger threat to victory than adders, at least during the evening hours, so why would we waste our time pointlessly double teaming the last place team?

This is exactly right. You're one of the few people I've seen in this thread acknowledge the fact that it happens three ways, and that it's not some grand conspiracy. Don't get me wrong, grudge cycling happens, but there's no lasting arrangements or never ending vendetta between two specific GC's.

As it happens, Mael has been surprisingly the bigger threat for Flames this week as well... We've had to keep a close eye on you reds lately...

[Kurogaea]

We go in and somehow get double teamed in the end by both teams. My speculations would be that:

1. losing team wants to push 2nd and the 1st place team wants to keeps us away.
2. losing team hates our guts from the last rounds and don't want us to win.
3. Infamously the ol' double teaming conspiracy

All is likely but the 3rd one, but one can never be sure with these horrible losses lately. Some guy told me he had 21 wins, 24 2nd, 27 3rd wins this week. I was friggen baffled and of course I think he was lying to spite me. So anyway, its my luck alone that gives me a 10% win ratio on the Flames side, my GC just sucks, or Flames have some sort of chicken fodder aura that draws in Maelstrom and Adders like crows to ripe fruit. Either way, its BS. There's no denying that. And grats to those with amazing scores on the Flames Primal server because I don't see it happening :/

[HylianBebop]

I know last night people in Flames/Adders were fed up with Mael winning all day, so there was a sentiment to just zerg Mael in one match, which Flames won in a route, like 800-200-20. It was worth it.

I've been in all 3 GCs now on Primal Cluster, and Adders have the absolute worst win rate since Seize was introduced. Flames, when they're on point, are very consistent and I had a winning weekly record with them. But they too easily get tunnel vision and get caught up in meaningless fights that a GC (Maelstrom...) can exploit, so lots of 2nd place finishes where a lead was blown. Maelstrom is the overall the strongest GC, it looks like they've gotten better since I've been away. The seem to win the most overall. They think strategically and give themselves the best chance to win. Usually they only lose when too many players are not on the same page (reset day filled with Eso cappers), RNG really screws them over, or a gamble by another GC (Flames) pays off for once and beats out the by-the-numbers approach of Maelstrom.

Anyway, once I get my 100 wins with Badders I'm back to Maelstronk to finish hitting rank 50. I might go back to Flames and hit 50 with them, too (and be with my CuC bretheren), but unless they add a new mount requiring it, I'm never going back to the Badders.

[C00KIE_M0N57R]

So anyway, its my luck alone that gives me a 10% win ratio on the Flames side, my GC just sucks, or Flames have some sort of chicken fodder aura that draws in Maelstrom and Adders like crows to ripe fruit. Either way, its BS. There's no denying that. And grats to those with amazing scores on the Flames Primal server because I don't see it happening :/

It really comes down to leadership; a gc is more likely to win if there is at least one person doing call outs. Not trying to brag, but my win ratio is usually 40-50% every week with an average of 30 matches. And its because I can get a majority of the people in my alliance to actually do sensible things. My suggestion is to try to make call outs yourself. Study the map more every match and you'll notice patterns of what does and doesn't work. You'll be able to tell when a pincer is coming or when to back off. Trust me, most people will listen.

[Februs]

Trust me, most people will listen.

Most people do listen; however, sometimes it takes a bit of nagging to get them all to pay attention. often, people just get too caught up in the fight to notice the chat box, and, there's always the "bad apples" in the group.

I find I spend a lot of time fighting against cowards and pacifists who are constantly shouting "RETREAT!!" in the chat box, or insist on camping nodes under the pretense of "defense," even when it is an awful decision and will clearly cost us the match. For example, people who insist on defending even though they are in last place. You will never gain enough points just sitting there, but somehow they are afraid to attack and take new nodes. Stupidity at its finest, unless your goal is 2nd or 3rd place. You also get the occasional person who is convinced you're going to lose even before the fight has started. It's mind numbing, and infuriating, and it can literally infect the entire Alliance and effect their performance if all they hear is negativity about their odds of winning... There's a lot of negative voices to outshout in the chat box sometimes.

You're right though. Winning requires strong leadership. Every man for himself does not work. For anyone who has a bad winning %, I'd recommend paying attention to the chat box and honestly evaluate if there is clear and solid leadership or if there's just a lot of negative comments. If it's the later, consider trying to lead yourself (if you have a mind for tactics) or finding someone else who can do the job (if you don't personally have a mind for tactics). Just be aware that if you take up the role yourself, it requires that you take a certain distance from the fight.

I have to pull myself out early from combat a lot of the time to check the map, node spawn timers (focus targeting a node is a good trick for doing this), and enemy positions, so that I can accurately plan the teams next move. Then I have to make my decision clear to the team in a simple to understand manner and make sure they listen (which sometimes requires multiple shout-outs). It also requires good map awareness, and knowing which direction is the best to approach from. Most people charge in head first because it's the shortest path, but that's usually leads to a stalemate or putting yourself in a position to get pincer-ed easily. Sometimes it's better to take the long way round, which means convincing the team to not get too far ahead of themselves. You gotta be quick in your instructions. Because of this, I spend a lot less time being directly involved in the fights than the grunts when leadership falls to me. Some people might find that not nearly as fun, especially since it comes with a lot of responsibility, but someone has to do it if you want to win.